MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI





Darren Ehlers
OpenUI Consortium
<A HREF ="http://www.openui.org/">http://www.openui.org/</A>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> Media Services Int'l, Inc.
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:45 PM
> To: 'mivalist'; 'Jonathan - Driftwood';
> [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
>
> I personally would never keep a business relationship
> with someone or some company I had no respect for.

There-in lies one of the primary reasons there will not be an OpenUI, and I
will not develop any products for Miva Merchant 5.

Darren Ehlers
OpenUI Consortium
<A HREF ="http://www.openui.org/">http://www.openui.org/</A>

> Pamela
> Real Solutions for Miva Merchant
> The Official Guide to Miva Merchant
> <A HREF ="http://www.designextend.com/DE">http://www.designextend.com/DE</A>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of mivalist
> > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:42 PM
> > To: Jonathan - Driftwood; [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
> >
> >
> > I'm well aware that Miva and its partners have benefited from
> > OUI (although Miva won't acknowledge that like the partners
> > will). I never suggested that wasn't the case.
> >
> > However, those responsible for how MM5 was developed wanted
> > it such that what had been provided by OUI was no longer
> > needed and was instead incorporated into the core product.
> > That's understandable. Miva doesn't want to rely on OUI to
> > make its product competitive with other carts. Other
> > developers don't want to have to code around both Merchant
> > and OUI to make their products work. It's all logical and I'm
> > not going to debate whether it's a good decision or a bad one.
> >
> > I've personally heard from several developers who have stated
> > this to be the case so I know it's true. Regardless of the
> > motivations, people wanted a Merchant cart that didn't
> > require OUI to make adding new functionality easy.
> >
> > I'm not judging that decision here; just saying that with
> > that in mind there's no logical reason for Miva to update the
> > VM just so that it works with OUI. There's no incentive for
> > that to happen other than to please end users which isn't a
> > reason at all in Miva's eyes.
> >
> > Dan
> > Impulse Creations
> >
> > For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service
> > visit us at www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for
> > information on our discounted subscription service with free
> > bags and free shipping!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jonathan - Driftwood [mailto:[email protected]]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:59 AM
> > To: mivalist; [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
> >
> > No personal offense is intended Dan -- but you are blaming
> the victim.
> >
> > I am sorry, but saying "most ... partners want Darren and OUI
> > gone." is completely wrong, woefully misleading to those
> > without experience in the history of this application, and
> > simply unfair at its base.
> >
> > The reality is that almost -all- Partners have directly
> > benefited from the Darren Ehlers and his exhaustive work on
> > the OpenUI. The overall contribution made by Darren to the
> > Miva Merchant community is inestimatable. I can count on one
> > hand the number of new features added to Miva Merchant in the
> > almost 10 years -- which were not first designed by Darren,
> > coded by Darren, and implemented by Darren; before being
> > subsumed by Miva Corp and included into their products. Zero
> > acknowledgement was given as to the features' true creator,
> > nor support, nor even a passing "thank you". It started with
> > his (and others of extreme talent) work via the company
> > 'Starbase21' and continued until the day that Darren had
> > enough. That he tolerated being treated like an unwelcome
> > cousin all those years was testament to his professionalism
> > and maturity; no matter what sour grapes a small minority
> > attempted to create.
> >
> > The thousands of Miva Merchant stores which were enabled by
> > the OpenUI is testament to its quality and value. There was
> > NOTHING preventing any developer from writing their modules
> > or Miva Merchant add-ons to be fully compliant with the Miva
> > Merchant API; so much as it was/is. Many more of them
> > tangibly benefitted from his work.
> >
> > To say that Miva Corp Partners wanted Darren 'out of the
> > picture' is simply incorrect and misleading.
> >
> > Jonathan
> > Driftwood Network Services
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 11:23 AM 5/19/2005, mivalist wrote:
> > >2. Without getting into whether or not actions on either side are
> > justified,
> > >Miva and most (or at least the most vocal) partners want
> > Darren and OUI
> > >gone. Between that and Miva's continued policy of ignoring
> end-users
> > there's
> > >no reason to believe that Miva will ever make a downwards
> compatible
> > version
> > >of the VM just so that older stores can continue to use
> OUI. They'll
> > >only release a new version that has that effect if it turns
> > out to be
> > >needed to fix other issues as well. I seriously doubt that
> they made
> > >this change simply to encourage people to drop OUI and upgrade to
> > >Merchant 5 but having that effect is certainly a plus for
> Miva which
> > >again makes them disinclined to change it.
> > >
> > >Dan
> > >Impulse Creations
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.13 - Release Date: 5/19/05
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.13 - Release Date: 5/19/05
> >
> >
> >

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



I wholeheartedly agree (and Dan, just FYI , the majority of my "rants"
are not necessarily directed at solely the original poster - hope you
don't think I was trying to slap you around).

However, there's a WAY to discuss things. I've seen a lot of posts get
out of hand and run into crazy, heated debates (I could actually hear
people screaming, donning red faces), rather than just having a
"conversation."

> However, if your silence or dissent is based simply on not
> wanting to bite the hand that feeds you then that just shows
> a lack of any moral fiber and is certainly not something to
> be encouraged or to be proud of.

I'm not encouraging people to shut up at all. But I would say that if
you worked for Trump and had a problem, there's a way to present that.
Some things SHOULD be presented off list, and somethings should be
presented with an open mind. Spewing the first thing that comes out of
one's head usually winds up biting them back. I've been there myself a
million times. Either way people decide what to post on, it's always
nice to take a few minutes before hitting that send button.

Pamela
Real Solutions for Miva Merchant
The Official Guide to Miva Merchant
<A HREF ="http://www.designextend.com/DE">http://www.designextend.com/DE</A>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of mivalist
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 4:32 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
>
>
> In addition to everyone having a "right" to comment when they
> feel Miva (or anyone else) has done something that has a
> negative impact, I believe they actually have a
> "responsibility" to do so. Nothing ever gets changed by
> remaining silent. Only by standing up for yourself will your
> opinion ever be heard and that opinion may influence Miva.
> There's no guarantee that it will but you can bet it won't if
> you say nothing.
>
> If you remain silent because you feel that there's been no
> wrong then that's just fine. If you speak out against those
> who claim there has been a wrong because you disagree then
> that's even better. That's what leads to a real discussion of
> the issue.
>
> However, if your silence or dissent is based simply on not
> wanting to bite the hand that feeds you then that just shows
> a lack of any moral fiber and is certainly not something to
> be encouraged or to be proud of.
>
> Dan
> Impulse Creations
>
> For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service
> visit us at www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for
> information on our discounted subscription service with free
> bags and free shipping!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
> Chuck Lasker - DoublePlus
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 3:13 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
>
> Pamela said:
>
> > It's sad to hear the continuous comments about how bad Miva Corp is
> > itself. It seems that any time something negative is
> posted, it turns
> > into a loop of insults to the company that, in one way or another,
> > helps us ALL make money (or for those new businesses, make
> a presence
> > on the web). I personally would never keep a business relationship
> > with someone
> > or some company I had no respect for.
>
> Just because we make money supporting Miva Merchant owners,
> doesn't mean Miva is helping us make money, any more than
> Microsoft is helping technicians who charge for supporting
> Windows make money. Unless, of course, you mean that by
> creating a less-than-perfect product, Miva is helping people
> like us make more money supporting it when it needs
> modifications to do what the customer wants. I guess, in that
> way, Miva is helping me.
>
> I think it's important to understand that criticizing a
> company's decisions is not a horrific act. I don't think
> stating that I think something was done incorrectly, in my
> opinion, leads directly to severing all ties with the
> company. It's not so black and white.
>
> If I only kept business relationships with companies I felt
> were perfect, I'd have no business relationships at all. Of
> course, what constitutes a business relationship in this
> context? Using the product? I don't think so. A business
> relationship is mutually supportive in some way, which I
> don't see happening here. If I buy Shell gas, that doesn't
> mean I have a relationship with Shell, nor that I respect
> them. It just means I bought gas from them, and doesn't mean
> I shouldn't criticize them from that point forward.
>
> Chuck
>
>

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



Chuck, it's now May, which means...

> Just because we make money supporting Miva Merchant owners,
> doesn't mean Miva is helping us make money, any more than
> Microsoft is helping technicians who charge for supporting
> Windows make money. Unless, of course, you mean that by
> creating a less-than-perfect product, Miva is helping people
> like us make more money supporting it when it needs
> modifications to do what the customer wants. I guess, in that
> way, Miva is helping me.

I don't agree it at all. If Miva Merchant didn't exist, then none of us
would be here at this point and time. If Microsoft Didn't exist, I can
spew off at least a hundred companies that wouldn't be in existence. The
fact is, each company is different, some allow developers to work on
plug ins, some don't. Miva does. Just because we're working in ecommerce
doesn't mean if Miva Merchant didn't exist we'd be working with another
shopping cart. We might be pursuing other goals, like rocket science, or
simply mowing lawns.

> I think it's important to understand that criticizing a
> company's decisions is not a horrific act. I don't think
> stating that I think something was done incorrectly, in my
> opinion, leads directly to severing all ties with the
> company. It's not so black and white.

Not at all. I get criticized, and usually it's constructively. But
there's a difference between criticizing a company for specific issues,
and, say, dogging the company for being a pretty bad guy. I have to look
at it this way - if I told my clients that Miva Corp. doesn't care about
users, doesn't care about anything they need or want, what is my client
going to think. Most likely they'll say, "Hang on, if this company
doesn't care, then why am I using Miva Merchant." They might decide to
move to another platform, which means Miva Corp. doesn't get their
business, and neither do I. Does Miva Corp have problems? Of course. Is
it wrong to discuss those issues? yes, to an extent. I don't believe
making weekly statements, manytimes in response to other posts, that
they just dont care, or did something shady, or killed the good guy is
good business for *any* of us. How do you think new users here perceive
that?

> If I only kept business relationships with companies I felt
> were perfect, I'd have no business relationships at all.

Ahh, but I never said "perfect." I said that if you think so poorly of a
company to take public stands at flogging them, then why would you work
with them? I've had issues with every business and person I've worked
with, but I dont' air the dirty laundry. And if it ever reached the
point that I had no respect for them, then, at least for me, morality is
a big part of my business, so I'll walk. I have a good relationship with
Miva Corp., Darren and most all the developers on this list. We've ALL
had ups and downs - bumps in the road - sometimes even personal. But we
get through them, and the way we get through them determines if our
relationship will grow or just die a slow death.

> Of
> course, what constitutes a business relationship in this
> context? Using the product? I don't think so.

But you're not just using the product. You provide a service that's
specifically based on the product. I'm sure you've had conversations
with the powers that be, even if only at a conference. You have
advertised yourself on the lists. You have a business relationship in
some form.

A business
> relationship is mutually supportive in some way, which I
> don't see happening here. If I buy Shell gas, that doesn't
> mean I have a relationship with Shell, nor that I respect
> them. It just means I bought gas from them, and doesn't mean
> I shouldn't criticize them from that point forward.

No, but Shell gas is only helping you get from point A to point B and
you have other options (Mobil, Hess, etc.). You chose to use Shell. If
you come back and say Shell sucks, then I've got to wonder why would
continue to use their gas? But, if you somehoew made money as a result
of their product (own a gas station, work at one, buy and sell oil they
use, etc.) then it wouldn't be the best business to air the issues in
this way. Because their business has an affect on your business (they
don't sell as much gas, and you're a supplier of oil, your sales may
drop and the other guys might be willing to buy from you, but at less
per barrel.

It's a simple process of numbers. You can disagree all you'd like, but
if you are making a living off the work you do on Miva Merchant stores,
then Miva Corp does play a factor in the checks you cash each week. Same
if you were a developer of Windows software, plugins for PhotoShop, or
PHP scripter.

If developers made money as a direct result of the OpenUI, then they
also made money as a direct result of Miva Merchant on both the rights
and wrongs.

Pamela
Real Solutions for Miva Merchant
The Official Guide to Miva Merchant
<A HREF ="http://www.designextend.com/DE">http://www.designextend.com/DE</A>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> Chuck Lasker - DoublePlus
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 4:13 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
>
>
> Pamela said:
>
> > It's sad to hear the continuous comments about how bad Miva Corp is
> > itself. It seems that any time something negative is
> posted, it turns
> > into a loop of insults to the company that, in one way or another,
> > helps us ALL make money (or for those new businesses, make
> a presence
> > on the web). I personally would never keep a business relationship
> > with someone
> > or some company I had no respect for.
>
> Just because we make money supporting Miva Merchant owners,
> doesn't mean Miva is helping us make money, any more than
> Microsoft is helping technicians who charge for supporting
> Windows make money. Unless, of course, you mean that by
> creating a less-than-perfect product, Miva is helping people
> like us make more money supporting it when it needs
> modifications to do what the customer wants. I guess, in that
> way, Miva is helping me.
>
> I think it's important to understand that criticizing a
> company's decisions is not a horrific act. I don't think
> stating that I think something was done incorrectly, in my
> opinion, leads directly to severing all ties with the
> company. It's not so black and white.
>
> If I only kept business relationships with companies I felt
> were perfect, I'd have no business relationships at all. Of
> course, what constitutes a business relationship in this
> context? Using the product? I don't think so. A business
> relationship is mutually supportive in some way, which I
> don't see happening here. If I buy Shell gas, that doesn't
> mean I have a relationship with Shell, nor that I respect
> them. It just means I bought gas from them, and doesn't mean
> I shouldn't criticize them from that point forward.
>
> Chuck
>
>

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



In addition to everyone having a "right" to comment when they feel Miva (or
anyone else) has done something that has a negative impact, I believe they
actually have a "responsibility" to do so. Nothing ever gets changed by
remaining silent. Only by standing up for yourself will your opinion ever be
heard and that opinion may influence Miva. There's no guarantee that it will
but you can bet it won't if you say nothing.

If you remain silent because you feel that there's been no wrong then that's
just fine. If you speak out against those who claim there has been a wrong
because you disagree then that's even better. That's what leads to a real
discussion of the issue.

However, if your silence or dissent is based simply on not wanting to bite
the hand that feeds you then that just shows a lack of any moral fiber and
is certainly not something to be encouraged or to be proud of.

Dan
Impulse Creations

For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit us at
www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Chuck Lasker -
DoublePlus
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 3:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI

Pamela said:

> It's sad to hear the continuous comments about how bad Miva Corp is
> itself. It seems that any time something negative is posted, it turns
> into a loop of insults to the company that, in one way or
> another, helps
> us ALL make money (or for those new businesses, make a presence on the
> web). I personally would never keep a business relationship
> with someone
> or some company I had no respect for.

Just because we make money supporting Miva Merchant owners, doesn't mean
Miva is helping us make money, any more than Microsoft is helping
technicians who charge for supporting Windows make money. Unless, of course,
you mean that by creating a less-than-perfect product, Miva is helping
people like us make more money supporting it when it needs modifications to
do what the customer wants. I guess, in that way, Miva is helping me.

I think it's important to understand that criticizing a company's decisions
is not a horrific act. I don't think stating that I think something was done
incorrectly, in my opinion, leads directly to severing all ties with the
company. It's not so black and white.

If I only kept business relationships with companies I felt were perfect,
I'd have no business relationships at all. Of course, what constitutes a
business relationship in this context? Using the product? I don't think so.
A business relationship is mutually supportive in some way, which I don't
see happening here. If I buy Shell gas, that doesn't mean I have a
relationship with Shell, nor that I respect them. It just means I bought gas
from them, and doesn't mean I shouldn't criticize them from that point
forward.

Chuck

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



Pamela,

I'm sorry to have gotten you started on a tirade but, if you'll re-read my
posts on this subject, I think you'll see that I haven't made any judgments
about the validity of the decisions that have been made. I only stated the
reason why Miva will not change the VM just to accommodate OUI. Unless you
disagree with that assessment I really don't see what has you so upset.

As for "people", I was very clear that I was referring to those responsible
for MM5 which means Miva and any partners who provided input.

I also made it very clear that the reasons behind the development of MM5 are
perfectly logical. You're right that Miva has no responsibility to
accommodate end users, developers, hosts, or anyone else and I said as much.
Regardless of the reasons, MM5 went in a direction that makes OUI obsolete.
That's fine. End of story. No dispute. This thread though is about the new
VM and it's effect on existing OUI stores. It has nothing to do with MM5
beyond the fact that the new VM is intended primarily for MM5 stores.

I've emphasized the point numerous times that I'm not condemning Miva's
decisions. The whole point is that the facts behind those decisions make it
foolish to hold out hope that Miva will change the VM out of concern for OUI
users. That's just fine but it's something for anyone using OUI to be aware
of and to be concerned about if they're with a host who might upgrade the VM
their using without being aware of the consequences.

Again, I'm sorry I pinched a nerve but I really wish people would stop
taking things comments that might have even a hint of negativity about Miva
so personally, especially in this case when no negativity was intended.

Dan
Impulse Creations

For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit us at
www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!


-----Original Message-----
From: Media Services Int'l, Inc. [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:45 PM
To: 'mivalist'; 'Jonathan - Driftwood'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI

Here we go again...

>>"Regardless of the motivations, people wanted a Merchant cart that
didn't require OUI to make adding new functionality easy."<<

What do you mean by "people"? The point missing here is that the bulk of
the people I know DID want the OpenUI, though many power users and
developers felt it had too many features that weren't necessary. But
I've rarely heard anyone say they just didn't want it. If no one wanted
it it wouldn't have gotten as popular as it has.

>>"I'm not judging that decision here; just saying that with that in
mind there's no logical reason for Miva to update the VM just so that it
works with OUI."<<

It wouldn't be Miva's responsibility. It's not the responsibility of the
software company to accomodate any third-party developer. Their only
responsibility is to their own product and to make sure it works with
their own add-ons and plans.

It's not a developer's responsibility to develop for an upgraded
platform. No developer is required to do anything for Miva Merchant 5 if
they don't want to - unless they had something in writing that stated
they would. Would it be good business sense? Sure, but it's not a
requirement.

>>"There's no incentive for that to happen other than to please end
users which isn't a reason at all in Miva's eyes."<<

I have to say, though at times it seems that Miva Corp. isn't concerned
about requests made by users, I also have to look at what's important to
users. Each user wants specific features, and specific elements in a
piece of software. I see it all the time with third-party modules. Ask
the key developers out there how many times a day they hear "This would
be a great feature I'm sure everyone will benefit from..." When most of
the time the demand is not as high as one might think. Albeit there are
certain features Miva Merchant has needed for a long time (and some it
still does), but to implement "everything" deemed important by every
user would turn Miva Merchant into an outrageously non-affordable
system. I've worked with $20,000 systems that are void of even the
simplest of features, with locked down code you can't edit, and these
"big companies" just accept it and tell customers they just can't offer
them that feature.

Ask Darren how many features were requested for the OUI that were never
implemented at all - I'm going to guess the number is quite high.

We can't have everything, and with Miva Merchant, at least we have
options.

The short is, I don't know why we have to keep revisiting the kicking
around of everything when there's so many other things we could do with
our time. Everything's been hashed to the ground, and it's gotten quite
tiresome. Darren has accepted the fact that there will be no OpenUI in
version 5. I've accepted this fact. This will not change. So why rehash
it every week? Some are happy, some are sad, and some are downright
furious over it - doesn't change reality.

It's sad to hear the continuous comments about how bad Miva Corp is
itself. It seems that any time something negative is posted, it turns
into a loop of insults to the company that, in one way or another, helps
us ALL make money (or for those new businesses, make a presence on the
web). I personally would never keep a business relationship with someone
or some company I had no respect for.

Pamela
Real Solutions for Miva Merchant
The Official Guide to Miva Merchant
<A HREF ="http://www.designextend.com/DE">http://www.designextend.com/DE</A>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of mivalist
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:42 PM
> To: Jonathan - Driftwood; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
>
>
> I'm well aware that Miva and its partners have benefited from
> OUI (although Miva won't acknowledge that like the partners
> will). I never suggested that wasn't the case.
>
> However, those responsible for how MM5 was developed wanted
> it such that what had been provided by OUI was no longer
> needed and was instead incorporated into the core product.
> That's understandable. Miva doesn't want to rely on OUI to
> make its product competitive with other carts. Other
> developers don't want to have to code around both Merchant
> and OUI to make their products work. It's all logical and I'm
> not going to debate whether it's a good decision or a bad one.
>
> I've personally heard from several developers who have stated
> this to be the case so I know it's true. Regardless of the
> motivations, people wanted a Merchant cart that didn't
> require OUI to make adding new functionality easy.
>
> I'm not judging that decision here; just saying that with
> that in mind there's no logical reason for Miva to update the
> VM just so that it works with OUI. There's no incentive for
> that to happen other than to please end users which isn't a
> reason at all in Miva's eyes.
>
> Dan
> Impulse Creations
>
> For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service
> visit us at www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for
> information on our discounted subscription service with free
> bags and free shipping!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan - Driftwood [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:59 AM
> To: mivalist; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
>
> No personal offense is intended Dan -- but you are blaming the victim.
>
> I am sorry, but saying "most ... partners want Darren and OUI
> gone." is completely wrong, woefully misleading to those
> without experience in the history of this application, and
> simply unfair at its base.
>
> The reality is that almost -all- Partners have directly
> benefited from the Darren Ehlers and his exhaustive work on
> the OpenUI. The overall contribution made by Darren to the
> Miva Merchant community is inestimatable. I can count on one
> hand the number of new features added to Miva Merchant in the
> almost 10 years -- which were not first designed by Darren,
> coded by Darren, and implemented by Darren; before being
> subsumed by Miva Corp and included into their products. Zero
> acknowledgement was given as to the features' true creator,
> nor support, nor even a passing "thank you". It started with
> his (and others of extreme talent) work via the company
> 'Starbase21' and continued until the day that Darren had
> enough. That he tolerated being treated like an unwelcome
> cousin all those years was testament to his professionalism
> and maturity; no matter what sour grapes a small minority
> attempted to create.
>
> The thousands of Miva Merchant stores which were enabled by
> the OpenUI is testament to its quality and value. There was
> NOTHING preventing any developer from writing their modules
> or Miva Merchant add-ons to be fully compliant with the Miva
> Merchant API; so much as it was/is. Many more of them
> tangibly benefitted from his work.
>
> To say that Miva Corp Partners wanted Darren 'out of the
> picture' is simply incorrect and misleading.
>
> Jonathan
> Driftwood Network Services
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 11:23 AM 5/19/2005, mivalist wrote:
> >2. Without getting into whether or not actions on either side are
> justified,
> >Miva and most (or at least the most vocal) partners want
> Darren and OUI
> >gone. Between that and Miva's continued policy of ignoring end-users
> there's
> >no reason to believe that Miva will ever make a downwards compatible
> version
> >of the VM just so that older stores can continue to use OUI. They'll
> >only release a new version that has that effect if it turns
> out to be
> >needed to fix other issues as well. I seriously doubt that they made
> >this change simply to encourage people to drop OUI and upgrade to
> >Merchant 5 but having that effect is certainly a plus for Miva which
> >again makes them disinclined to change it.
> >
> >Dan
> >Impulse Creations
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.13 - Release Date: 5/19/05
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.13 - Release Date: 5/19/05
>
>
>

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



Here we go again...

>>"Regardless of the motivations, people wanted a Merchant cart that
didn't require OUI to make adding new functionality easy."<<

What do you mean by "people"? The point missing here is that the bulk of
the people I know DID want the OpenUI, though many power users and
developers felt it had too many features that weren't necessary. But
I've rarely heard anyone say they just didn't want it. If no one wanted
it it wouldn't have gotten as popular as it has.

>>"I'm not judging that decision here; just saying that with that in
mind there's no logical reason for Miva to update the VM just so that it
works with OUI."<<

It wouldn't be Miva's responsibility. It's not the responsibility of the
software company to accomodate any third-party developer. Their only
responsibility is to their own product and to make sure it works with
their own add-ons and plans.

It's not a developer's responsibility to develop for an upgraded
platform. No developer is required to do anything for Miva Merchant 5 if
they don't want to - unless they had something in writing that stated
they would. Would it be good business sense? Sure, but it's not a
requirement.

>>"There's no incentive for that to happen other than to please end
users which isn't a reason at all in Miva's eyes."<<

I have to say, though at times it seems that Miva Corp. isn't concerned
about requests made by users, I also have to look at what's important to
users. Each user wants specific features, and specific elements in a
piece of software. I see it all the time with third-party modules. Ask
the key developers out there how many times a day they hear "This would
be a great feature I'm sure everyone will benefit from..." When most of
the time the demand is not as high as one might think. Albeit there are
certain features Miva Merchant has needed for a long time (and some it
still does), but to implement "everything" deemed important by every
user would turn Miva Merchant into an outrageously non-affordable
system. I've worked with $20,000 systems that are void of even the
simplest of features, with locked down code you can't edit, and these
"big companies" just accept it and tell customers they just can't offer
them that feature.

Ask Darren how many features were requested for the OUI that were never
implemented at all - I'm going to guess the number is quite high.

We can't have everything, and with Miva Merchant, at least we have
options.

The short is, I don't know why we have to keep revisiting the kicking
around of everything when there's so many other things we could do with
our time. Everything's been hashed to the ground, and it's gotten quite
tiresome. Darren has accepted the fact that there will be no OpenUI in
version 5. I've accepted this fact. This will not change. So why rehash
it every week? Some are happy, some are sad, and some are downright
furious over it - doesn't change reality.

It's sad to hear the continuous comments about how bad Miva Corp is
itself. It seems that any time something negative is posted, it turns
into a loop of insults to the company that, in one way or another, helps
us ALL make money (or for those new businesses, make a presence on the
web). I personally would never keep a business relationship with someone
or some company I had no respect for.

Pamela
Real Solutions for Miva Merchant
The Official Guide to Miva Merchant
<A HREF ="http://www.designextend.com/DE">http://www.designextend.com/DE</A>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of mivalist
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:42 PM
> To: Jonathan - Driftwood; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
>
>
> I'm well aware that Miva and its partners have benefited from
> OUI (although Miva won't acknowledge that like the partners
> will). I never suggested that wasn't the case.
>
> However, those responsible for how MM5 was developed wanted
> it such that what had been provided by OUI was no longer
> needed and was instead incorporated into the core product.
> That's understandable. Miva doesn't want to rely on OUI to
> make its product competitive with other carts. Other
> developers don't want to have to code around both Merchant
> and OUI to make their products work. It's all logical and I'm
> not going to debate whether it's a good decision or a bad one.
>
> I've personally heard from several developers who have stated
> this to be the case so I know it's true. Regardless of the
> motivations, people wanted a Merchant cart that didn't
> require OUI to make adding new functionality easy.
>
> I'm not judging that decision here; just saying that with
> that in mind there's no logical reason for Miva to update the
> VM just so that it works with OUI. There's no incentive for
> that to happen other than to please end users which isn't a
> reason at all in Miva's eyes.
>
> Dan
> Impulse Creations
>
> For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service
> visit us at www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for
> information on our discounted subscription service with free
> bags and free shipping!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan - Driftwood [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:59 AM
> To: mivalist; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
>
> No personal offense is intended Dan -- but you are blaming the victim.
>
> I am sorry, but saying "most ... partners want Darren and OUI
> gone." is completely wrong, woefully misleading to those
> without experience in the history of this application, and
> simply unfair at its base.
>
> The reality is that almost -all- Partners have directly
> benefited from the Darren Ehlers and his exhaustive work on
> the OpenUI. The overall contribution made by Darren to the
> Miva Merchant community is inestimatable. I can count on one
> hand the number of new features added to Miva Merchant in the
> almost 10 years -- which were not first designed by Darren,
> coded by Darren, and implemented by Darren; before being
> subsumed by Miva Corp and included into their products. Zero
> acknowledgement was given as to the features' true creator,
> nor support, nor even a passing "thank you". It started with
> his (and others of extreme talent) work via the company
> 'Starbase21' and continued until the day that Darren had
> enough. That he tolerated being treated like an unwelcome
> cousin all those years was testament to his professionalism
> and maturity; no matter what sour grapes a small minority
> attempted to create.
>
> The thousands of Miva Merchant stores which were enabled by
> the OpenUI is testament to its quality and value. There was
> NOTHING preventing any developer from writing their modules
> or Miva Merchant add-ons to be fully compliant with the Miva
> Merchant API; so much as it was/is. Many more of them
> tangibly benefitted from his work.
>
> To say that Miva Corp Partners wanted Darren 'out of the
> picture' is simply incorrect and misleading.
>
> Jonathan
> Driftwood Network Services
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 11:23 AM 5/19/2005, mivalist wrote:
> >2. Without getting into whether or not actions on either side are
> justified,
> >Miva and most (or at least the most vocal) partners want
> Darren and OUI
> >gone. Between that and Miva's continued policy of ignoring end-users
> there's
> >no reason to believe that Miva will ever make a downwards compatible
> version
> >of the VM just so that older stores can continue to use OUI. They'll
> >only release a new version that has that effect if it turns
> out to be
> >needed to fix other issues as well. I seriously doubt that they made
> >this change simply to encourage people to drop OUI and upgrade to
> >Merchant 5 but having that effect is certainly a plus for Miva which
> >again makes them disinclined to change it.
> >
> >Dan
> >Impulse Creations
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.13 - Release Date: 5/19/05
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.13 - Release Date: 5/19/05
>
>
>

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



And the answer to that is yes, you can
do that, if your Empresa setup specifics
a certain mivavm for each site.



Jen
Hostasaurus.Com
Miva Premier Hosting Partner
813.971.8772
[email protected]


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miva Lists -
Webs Your Way
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI


That's not what I meant. I have 5 sites that use MVM 4, one site that
uses
Empresa 3.X and I want to have one site that uses MVM 5.

Leslie

> Yes, if you have a per-site installation
> of Empresa, you can have different sites
> on the same server using different versions.
>
> You cannot have the same site have .mvc
> files handled by both Empresa4 and Empresa5.
>
>
> Jen
> Hostasaurus.Com
> Miva Premier Hosting Partner
> 813.971.8772
> [email protected]
>
>

>
>
> Not the same site - the same server. We have uncompiled and compiled
4.X
> stores with each configured (via Apache addition directives for the
MVM
> stores) to use the version it needs. That's why I asked if a third
> version
> could be run.
>
> --
> Webs Your Way
> www.websyourway.com
>
>> Not on the same site unless you rename the files to not use .mvc
>> for one of the versions.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Can MVM 5.X co-exist with MVM 4.X like MVM 4.X can co-exist
>>> with Empresa 3.X?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Webs Your Way
>>> www.websyourway.com

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI




Hello All,

Here is an excerpt from an email sent by development:

"Array index must be positive" is a long-standing Miva Script
requirement. However, this error message is likely a symptom of a
lower-level problem; that a variable being used as the index is not
being set properly in MVM5 while it was being set properly in MVM4. We
found at least one case where this could occur in MVM5.01 and fixed it
in MVM5.02 (this is the fix for Order Processing in MM5). There may be
other conditions that cause this, which could be why the MVM5.02 is
still showing an error with OUI.

If anyone (ie: Darren or any other coder) has a script or small snippet
of code to share that exhibits the issue, we will be able to find the
root cause and fix it if it truly is being caused by a VM bug.

Regards,

Laura

Customer Service

Miva Corporation

A FindWhat Company

NASDAQ:FWHT

(858) 490-2570, option 3

Mon - Fri 9am - 5pm (PDT)

We're dedicated to your success in online business.(tm)

Advertise your website to millions of shoppers with Miva Marketplace.

Get $25, with a new ad account deposit of at least $100

Sign up now at <A HREF ="http://www.mivamarketplace.com/signup.html">http://www.mivamarketplace.com/signup.html</A>


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sebenza
Lists
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 8:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI

Anyone have a store running smoothly on MivaVM 5.02 with OpenUI? I just=20
upgraded a site and now get the following error from OpenUI.

Fatal error in ouisub.mvc @ [00000496:0000002a]: Line 5000: Array index=20
must be positive integer

Thanks,
--=20

Scott
SEBENZA.COM
Miva Development

Web: <A HREF ="http://www.sebenza.com">http://www.sebenza.com</A>
<A HREF ="http://www.mvcool.com/SS - miva modules">http://www.mvcool.com/SS - miva modules</A>

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



I know this is off topic and probably was discussed to death when the
MivaScript compiler came out, but why didn't Miva just keep the interpreter
built into the Empressa engine so it could execute both compiled and
un-compiled script? That would have made Tokens of any kind unnecessary to
begin with. Imagine how different OpenUI and every other 3rd party module
module would have evolved if it hadn't been necessary to re-invent an
interpreted language to restore what was lost due to the introduction of
compiled Merchant.

Miva already has a MivaScript interpreter, why introduce Merchant5 tokens
into the mix now? Imaging how much more powerful Merchant5 might have been?
Of course without documentation it's difficult to know what is possible with
these new tokens, but imagine how much more powerful Merchant5 might have
been if the full scripting language had been re-introduced into the MM5
storefront screens.

Ray Yates
<A HREF ="http://www.flyinghands.com">http://www.flyinghands.com</A>

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



I'm well aware that Miva and its partners have benefited from OUI (although
Miva won't acknowledge that like the partners will). I never suggested that
wasn't the case.

However, those responsible for how MM5 was developed wanted it such that
what had been provided by OUI was no longer needed and was instead
incorporated into the core product. That's understandable. Miva doesn't want
to rely on OUI to make its product competitive with other carts. Other
developers don't want to have to code around both Merchant and OUI to make
their products work. It's all logical and I'm not going to debate whether
it's a good decision or a bad one.

I've personally heard from several developers who have stated this to be the
case so I know it's true. Regardless of the motivations, people wanted a
Merchant cart that didn't require OUI to make adding new functionality easy.

I'm not judging that decision here; just saying that with that in mind
there's no logical reason for Miva to update the VM just so that it works
with OUI. There's no incentive for that to happen other than to please end
users which isn't a reason at all in Miva's eyes.

Dan
Impulse Creations

For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit us at
www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan - Driftwood [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:59 AM
To: mivalist; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI

No personal offense is intended Dan -- but you are blaming the victim.

I am sorry, but saying "most ... partners want Darren and OUI gone." is
completely wrong, woefully misleading to those without experience in the
history of this application, and simply unfair at its base.

The reality is that almost -all- Partners have directly benefited from the
Darren Ehlers and his exhaustive work on the OpenUI. The overall
contribution made by Darren to the Miva Merchant community is
inestimatable. I can count on one hand the number of new features added to
Miva Merchant in the almost 10 years -- which were not first designed by
Darren, coded by Darren, and implemented by Darren; before being subsumed
by Miva Corp and included into their products. Zero acknowledgement was
given as to the features' true creator, nor support, nor even a passing
"thank you". It started with his (and others of extreme talent) work via
the company 'Starbase21' and continued until the day that Darren had
enough. That he tolerated being treated like an unwelcome cousin all those
years was testament to his professionalism and maturity; no matter what
sour grapes a small minority attempted to create.

The thousands of Miva Merchant stores which were enabled by the OpenUI is
testament to its quality and value. There was NOTHING preventing any
developer from writing their modules or Miva Merchant add-ons to be fully
compliant with the Miva Merchant API; so much as it was/is. Many more of
them tangibly benefitted from his work.

To say that Miva Corp Partners wanted Darren 'out of the picture' is simply
incorrect and misleading.

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services









At 11:23 AM 5/19/2005, mivalist wrote:
>2. Without getting into whether or not actions on either side are
justified,
>Miva and most (or at least the most vocal) partners want Darren and OUI
>gone. Between that and Miva's continued policy of ignoring end-users
there's
>no reason to believe that Miva will ever make a downwards compatible
version
>of the VM just so that older stores can continue to use OUI. They'll only
>release a new version that has that effect if it turns out to be needed to
>fix other issues as well. I seriously doubt that they made this change
>simply to encourage people to drop OUI and upgrade to Merchant 5 but having
>that effect is certainly a plus for Miva which again makes them disinclined
>to change it.
>
>Dan
>Impulse Creations


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.13 - Release Date: 5/19/05

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.13 - Release Date: 5/19/05

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



Exactly my point. That's why I suggested only using a host that would not do
that (i.e. those on this list)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to justify the new VM not being downwards
compatible. I'm just saying that I doubt it ever will be and that puts
customers of lesser Merchant hosts at risk.

Dan
Impulse Creations

For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit us at
www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Miva Lists - Webs
Your Way
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI

Hang on - I was told when I asked about Miva Mia MVM5 that it WOULD work
with older compiled versions of Miva Merchant - granted that didn't mean
version with OUI in it. But there in lies the rub - if Miva says MVM5 is
backwards compatible then there WILL be hosts that upgrade to it. Not
every host subscribes to this list. Not every Miva Merchant user
subscribes to this list - they usually wind up here after they find out
they have to pay for support when something has broken on their store.


--
Webs Your Way
www.websyourway.com


> Two things to consider here:
>

> no reason to believe that Miva will ever make a downwards compatible
> version
> of the VM just so that older stores can continue to use OUI. They'll only
> release a new version that has that effect if it turns out to be needed to

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



That's not what I meant. I have 5 sites that use MVM 4, one site that uses
Empresa 3.X and I want to have one site that uses MVM 5.

Leslie

> Yes, if you have a per-site installation
> of Empresa, you can have different sites
> on the same server using different versions.
>
> You cannot have the same site have .mvc
> files handled by both Empresa4 and Empresa5.
>
>
> Jen
> Hostasaurus.Com
> Miva Premier Hosting Partner
> 813.971.8772
> [email protected]
>
>

>
>
> Not the same site - the same server. We have uncompiled and compiled 4.X
> stores with each configured (via Apache addition directives for the MVM
> stores) to use the version it needs. That's why I asked if a third
> version
> could be run.
>
> --
> Webs Your Way
> www.websyourway.com
>
>> Not on the same site unless you rename the files to not use .mvc
>> for one of the versions.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Can MVM 5.X co-exist with MVM 4.X like MVM 4.X can co-exist
>>> with Empresa 3.X?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Webs Your Way
>>> www.websyourway.com

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



--------------000202050305020403000703
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

thanks for the affirmation Vic... ;)

t

WolfPaw Computers - Miva List wrote:

>Correct.
>
>-Vic
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected]
>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tim Traver
>Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:15 PM
>To: Miva Lists - Webs Your Way
>Cc: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI
>
>Well, actually I think I figured out the answer...
>
>if you keep 2 separate directories for miva 4 and 5 installations, and then
>make the apache conf directives point to either one based on your needs,
>then that should do it...
>
>t
>
>
>Miva Lists - Webs Your Way wrote:
>
>
>
>>That's the same question I'm asking - maybe we will get an answer.
>>
>>Leslie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>The issue that I'm bringing up is that there isn't a nice way to have
>>>these versions coexist on the same machine (unless you put it in
>>>everyone's cgi, with its own conf files, or http conf ENV's).
>>>
>>>I guess this just sounds like its my problem.
>>>
>>>t
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



--------------050903010709010806030507
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well, actually I think I figured out the answer...

if you keep 2 separate directories for miva 4 and 5 installations, and
then make the apache conf directives point to either one based on your
needs, then that should do it...

t


Miva Lists - Webs Your Way wrote:

>That's the same question I'm asking - maybe we will get an answer.
>
>Leslie
>
>
>
>>The issue that I'm bringing up is that there isn't a nice way to have
>>these versions coexist on the same machine (unless you put it in
>>everyone's cgi, with its own conf files, or http conf ENV's).
>>
>>I guess this just sounds like its my problem.
>>
>>t
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI



Yes, if you have a per-site installation
of Empresa, you can have different sites
on the same server using different versions.

You cannot have the same site have .mvc
files handled by both Empresa4 and Empresa5.


Jen
Hostasaurus.Com
Miva Premier Hosting Partner
813.971.8772
[email protected]


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miva Lists -
Webs Your Way
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [mru] MivaVM 5.02 and OpenUI


Not the same site - the same server. We have uncompiled and compiled 4.X
stores with each configured (via Apache addition directives for the MVM
stores) to use the version it needs. That's why I asked if a third
version
could be run.

--=20
Webs Your Way
www.websyourway.com

> Not on the same site unless you rename the files to not use .mvc
> for one of the versions.
>
> David
>
>
>>
>> Can MVM 5.X co-exist with MVM 4.X like MVM 4.X can co-exist
>> with Empresa 3.X?
>>
>> --
>> Webs Your Way
>> www.websyourway.com
>>
>>
>> > We have 5.xVM installed on a couple servers, but are not
>> installing it on
>> > servers with 4.x stores. We've been seeing little
>> 'gotchas' like this
>> > popping up since 5.00VM was released, and I will not
>> compromise any of my
>> > customers existing stores like that.
>> >
>> > Vic Vega
>> > WolfPaw Computers
>> > Miva Merchant Hosting Specialists
>> > "Put the power of the pack to work for you!"(sm)
>> > Miva Standard Hosting Partner - OpenUI Premier Partner
>> > FREE MerchantHowTo.com Basic Tutorial Subscription with each
hosting
>> > account! A $49 value!
>> > http://tinyurl.com/48nmu
>> > Ph: (866) WOLFPAW
>> > www.wpcomp.com
>> >
>> >