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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Mivascript community Part II



    Hello everybody..

    I keep you updated with the mivascript.org website. Till now we have.. 4
    developers registered online. We have 2 of them who already help us with the
    text corrections (thanks to Richard Grevers and Bill Johnson).
    Let me give you once again the link to create your mivascript developer
    account:
    <A HREF ="http://www.mivascript.org/index.mvc?Ecran=COMP&Module=DEVC or">http://www.mivascript.org/index.mvc?...MP&Module=DEVC or</A>
    <A HREF ="http://www.asmallurl.com/1k">http://www.asmallurl.com/1k</A>

    Please participate to our project. Without your support we will never get
    this project online.

    Thank you again,
    Claudiu Bischoff


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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:23:06 +0100, Claudiu Bischoff
    <[email protected]> gave utterance to the following:

    I sent you a page of notes on the signup form but the email bounced
    (access denied)
    --
    Richard Grevers
    Between two evils always pick the one you haven't tried



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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    Hello

    Thank you everybody for your interest to that issue... I read the messages
    and I realize that I'm not alone in this project. I continue the web site
    development (I have only the private messages and tutorials features to
    finish)..

    In the next step.. I would like to get in contact (off list) with some of
    you who wants to help me with the beta testing of the site. I really need
    help on the language side. I won't put the website online till I'm not sure
    that all the texts are correctly spelled.. There are not so much to verify
    (a few pages).. but it's important. And next I would like to have your
    opinion (please please.. participate..) on the new Interview part of the
    website. I'm decided to animate the content with some articles and
    interviews on the developers. This website should let us know better who the
    mivascript developers are.. theirs goals.. theirs business.. etc.. I
    proposed first that to Ivo.. but no response.. so I don't think he has the
    time..

    So.. I propose that everybody to create his mivascript.org account so I can
    propose every member the interview.. I put online only the creation form of
    the account. No other link works ..
    The registration work like that:
    1. Creation of the account
    2. Activation of the account (a valid e-mail must be used)

    Once I have some members accounts .. I'll propose everybody the interview.
    Those who are well known on the list will have priority .. because they
    participate more so.. we can learn more from their experience.

    THE LINK: <A HREF ="http://www.mivascript.org/index.mvc?Ecran=COMP&Module=DEVC">http://www.mivascript.org/index.mvc?Ecran=COMP&Module=DEVC</A>

    Please contact me off list if you have any problem... [email protected]

    PS: Please participate to the project.. without you all, we won't create
    this community.. Take 2 min to make the registration.. it's not so much ..
    :)

    Thank you
    Claudiu Bischoff

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    Sent: mardi 18 janvier 2005 22:27
    To: 'Bruce - Phosphor'; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    Mivascript community


    I agree with you Bruce about a company protecting their trademark, but using
    a trademark for commentary/forum purposes does not constitute a violation.
    That's the key point. I checked with my trademark attorney on that to make
    sure. That's the way it is.

    A trademark is all about protecting its use in commerce. Creating a forum
    regarding Miva script containing "mivascript" in the domain does not
    constitute a violation of the trademark because:

    A. You are not competing with Miva or using their trademark for commercial
    purposes
    B. Nobody can confuse the fact that you are referring to a product created
    by Miva.

    This should not be confused with cybersquatting, where one registers the
    trademarks/company name of an organization for defamatory or monetary
    reasons (which is illegal under the Anti-Cybersquatting Consumer Protection
    Act).

    Enough said probably, I just couldn't let it go ;-)

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Bruce - Phosphor
    Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 1:10 AM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    Mivascript community

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    > Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:03 AM
    > To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
    > Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    > Mivascript community

    > I don't see anything wrong with using a domain with 'miva' in it for
    > community building, but that's my viewpoint. Whether it is right
    > to discuss
    > trademarks on-list and how that would affect a Miva project, that's your
    > personal view.
    > Miva is protecting their trademark? How is someone hurting it by
    > creating a
    > community/coding site? Their policies seem a bit detrimental. Go for it if
    > they're shutting down somebody hurting their business.

    Disregarding Miva's stance on this for a moment, the reason a company should
    be very deligent in defending the use of thier trademarks in web sites is
    simply a matter of general protection.

    If I let you use PhosphorMedia in a site that is benifical to us, then it
    becomes harder to defend the rights to it when someone wants to use that
    domain in a competitive site.

    -Bruce Golub
    PHOSPHOR Media
    www.phosphormedia.com
    --
    No virus found in this outgoing message.
    Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
    Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005


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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    I agree with you Bruce about a company protecting their trademark, but =
    using
    a trademark for commentary/forum purposes does not constitute a =
    violation.
    That's the key point. I checked with my trademark attorney on that to =
    make
    sure. That's the way it is.

    A trademark is all about protecting its use in commerce. Creating a =
    forum
    regarding Miva script containing "mivascript" in the domain does not
    constitute a violation of the trademark because:

    A. You are not competing with Miva or using their trademark for =
    commercial
    purposes
    B. Nobody can confuse the fact that you are referring to a product =
    created
    by Miva.

    This should not be confused with cybersquatting, where one registers the
    trademarks/company name of an organization for defamatory or monetary
    reasons (which is illegal under the Anti-Cybersquatting Consumer =
    Protection
    Act).

    Enough said probably, I just couldn't let it go ;-)

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Bruce - Phosphor
    Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 1:10 AM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    Mivascript community

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    > Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:03 AM
    > To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
    > Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    > Mivascript community

    > I don't see anything wrong with using a domain with 'miva' in it for
    > community building, but that's my viewpoint. Whether it is right
    > to discuss
    > trademarks on-list and how that would affect a Miva project, that's =
    your
    > personal view.
    > Miva is protecting their trademark? How is someone hurting it by
    > creating a
    > community/coding site? Their policies seem a bit detrimental. Go for =
    it if
    > they're shutting down somebody hurting their business.

    Disregarding Miva's stance on this for a moment, the reason a company =
    should
    be very deligent in defending the use of thier trademarks in web sites =
    is
    simply a matter of general protection.

    If I let you use PhosphorMedia in a site that is benifical to us, then =
    it
    becomes harder to defend the rights to it when someone wants to use that
    domain in a competitive site.

    -Bruce Golub
    PHOSPHOR Media
    www.phosphormedia.com
    --
    No virus found in this outgoing message.
    Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
    Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005


    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    I don't question your commitment to the Miva community Bill. Who's been
    around longer or who codes better makes no difference.

    I don't see anything wrong with using a domain with 'miva' in it for
    community building, but that's my viewpoint. Whether it is right to =
    discuss
    trademarks on-list and how that would affect a Miva project, that's your
    personal view.

    Miva is protecting their trademark? How is someone hurting it by =
    creating a
    community/coding site? Their policies seem a bit detrimental. Go for it =
    if
    they're shutting down somebody hurting their business.

    In an effort to not prolong this thread, I'll not have any further =
    comment.

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Bill Gilligan [mailto:[email protected]]=20
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 10:41 PM
    To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    Mivascript community

    Hi Ben,
    At the risk of going against my own post -
    I don't think it appropriate use of this list to either suggest that =
    Miva is
    mediocre for wanting to protect its trademarks, or asking on this list =
    for
    examples on not being sued for using their name.

    Few here have been on this list longer than I, and I freely released a
    domain name that is now owned by Miva Corp and used to heavily promote =
    their
    sales. I did not walk away from them... In fact, I agreed with them.

    Regardless of whether one could get away with using a name that does not
    make it right. I could use benwalsh.org, or ironcladsecure.org, but why
    would I?

    Why not use mvcentral, or mvhelp, or mvsupport or whatever? No need to =
    use
    miva - unless you just want to build your site off their work.

    I am not saying their tactics are appropriate - but rather they have =
    every
    right to hold their trademark tightly.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 9:24 PM
    To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    Mivascript community


    Pardon Bill, we were talking about trademarks and how that would affect
    Claudiu's mvscript project. Does the topic does not interest you, even
    though you posted a previous message regarding it?

    I think everyone is aware of the posting guidelines - I've been on this =
    list
    for years.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:27 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was =
    Mivascript
    community

    Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML =
    formatting),
    and must contain at least one of the following:

    - A usage question, or
    - A response to a usage question, or
    - An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
    - A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Bill Gilligan
    Gilligan On-Line
    www.gilliganonline.com
    570-723-4266

    Visit www.MvCentral.com
    For Everything Miva

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
    To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly =
    interested in
    building the mvscript community.

    They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for =
    a
    forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and =
    the
    domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using =
    Mivascript.org.
    Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
    To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

    Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each =
    and
    every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations =
    is
    there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not =
    use
    their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
    them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
    beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

    Chuck
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that =
    you've
    been given trouble before.

    Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with =
    mivascript.org.
    See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =</A>
    as is
    Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, =
    Delphi,
    and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for =
    their
    domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for =
    them
    to do so.

    I see your point though.

    And I'm still working on that million ;-)

    Ben


    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your =
    1000000...
    :-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark =
    unless
    parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) =
    or
    completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
    Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

    I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
    Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not =
    easy.
    The only protection I could find was parody...

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    Chuck,

    The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
    Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is =
    not
    commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard =
    time
    telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability =
    of
    that happening as 1/1000000.

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    While you were sleeping: =
    <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - =
    Driftwood'"
    <[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
    <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark =
    is a
    trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

    Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a =
    violation,
    but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to =
    be
    kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
    (reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
    trademark suit against me.

    You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the =
    legal
    fees =3D) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on =
    it).

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
    To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

    I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
    I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
    They are now using it.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
    To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


    Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

    I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
    registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
    HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
    Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to =
    Miva
    Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
    names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
    them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" =
    and
    "mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to =
    use
    them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting =
    company
    nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

    The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
    miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
    'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one =
    Miva
    employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name =
    that
    way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
    looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had =
    known
    me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

    Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and =
    abruptly
    by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
    immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

    Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
    domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
    names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you =
    use
    the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. =
    Ahem.

    So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their =
    name
    in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will =
    permit
    some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
    community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
    year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
    efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was =
    being
    told "you do not understand the world of business". A real =
    down-the-nose
    sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
    than half the number of years that I have.

    Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But =
    if
    you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely =
    be
    seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin =
    had
    a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
    Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they =
    darn
    well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
    their products.

    Go figure...

    Jonathan
    Driftwood Network Services



    At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
    >Hello everybody...
    >
    > I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript =
    community
    web
    >site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in =
    my
    >spare time I developed the web-site.
    > I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
    >
    > First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
    money
    >with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because =
    there
    >were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main =
    problem
    >was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to =
    make
    it
    >all alone.
    >
    > The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
    >developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
    >indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can =
    fill
    >an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish =
    his
    >photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
    >developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
    >mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
    >web-sites he made.
    > Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
    >developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody =
    can
    >use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
    >developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
    >tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) =
    so
    >every developer can add tutorials.
    > There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish =
    open
    >source projects online. I think there are some developers that have =
    already
    >some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
    >publish and promote them.
    > I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. =
    It
    >could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
    >appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea =
    was to
    >let developers "blog" every function with examples.
    > We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by =
    e-mail
    >(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
    want
    >to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
    >
    > The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but =
    that's
    >just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides =
    projects
    >ppl and coders)
    >
    > So I really need help to the following points:
    >
    > 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this =
    site.
    > 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I =
    already
    >sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. =
    but
    >no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once =
    again
    >is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
    >really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
    >appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do =
    you
    >think?
    > 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would =
    the
    >best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are =
    some
    >developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think =
    they
    >can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already =
    integrated
    >htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
    >create tutorials)
    > 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to =
    copy
    >sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
    >about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
    > 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
    > 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
    >
    > There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. =
    But
    I'll
    >be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
    want
    >to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
    >
    > PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
    system...
    >so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other =
    ideas
    >just let me know..
    >
    >
    > Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for =
    that.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Claudiu Bischoff
    >
    >

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    Hi Bill,

    I believe the topic is very appropriate for this list, even though I think
    that it's highly speculative - after all there hasn't been any formal answer
    from the side of FindWhat to the issue. If they want to protect their
    trademark - fine, I think we all understand this. Is it a wise choice? Well,
    this can be discussed.

    Nevertheless, quote the list policies to cut off such an important
    discussion which directly affects the future of Mivascript, the Mivascript
    community and therefore directly or indirectly also the professional life of
    most of the people on this list is quite a bummer. The issue at stake is the
    most important "USAGE QUESTION" of them all. The discussion is not about
    using mivascript.org or about trademark issues, but about Claudiu's project
    and how to drive the Mivascript community forward.

    A while ago, Joe Austin (at the time still boss of Miva Corp) himself
    indicated privately that they (Miva) had no intentions to support or promote
    Mivascript. So either we all drop this language and go somewhere else, write
    Merchant modules or we try to keep this thing alive on our own. At this
    point of time Claudiu's initiative is probably the best thing that could
    happen to us, and my suggestion to petition (maybe with an open letter?) to
    turn it into open source might maybe make a difference. We don't know until
    we ask. If they don't like it, well, fine.

    My understanding was that it was in this context when Chuck called them
    "mediocre" as long as they "don't open up and think bigger", and he definely
    has a very valid point.

    Markus





    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 11:41 PM
    To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    Mivascript community

    Hi Ben,
    At the risk of going against my own post - I don't think it appropriate use
    of this list to either suggest that Miva is mediocre for wanting to protect
    its trademarks, or asking on this list for examples on not being sued for
    using their name.

    Few here have been on this list longer than I, and I freely released a
    domain name that is now owned by Miva Corp and used to heavily promote their
    sales. I did not walk away from them... In fact, I agreed with them.

    Regardless of whether one could get away with using a name that does not
    make it right. I could use benwalsh.org, or ironcladsecure.org, but why
    would I?

    Why not use mvcentral, or mvhelp, or mvsupport or whatever? No need to use
    miva - unless you just want to build your site off their work.

    I am not saying their tactics are appropriate - but rather they have every
    right to hold their trademark tightly.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 9:24 PM
    To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    Mivascript community


    Pardon Bill, we were talking about trademarks and how that would affect
    Claudiu's mvscript project. Does the topic does not interest you, even
    though you posted a previous message regarding it?

    I think everyone is aware of the posting guidelines - I've been on this list
    for years.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:27 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript
    community

    Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML formatting),
    and must contain at least one of the following:

    - A usage question, or
    - A response to a usage question, or
    - An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
    - A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

    ======================
    Bill Gilligan
    Gilligan On-Line
    www.gilliganonline.com
    570-723-4266

    Visit www.MvCentral.com
    For Everything Miva

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
    To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly interested in
    building the mvscript community.

    They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for a
    forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and the
    domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using Mivascript.org.
    Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
    To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

    Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each and
    every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations is
    there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not use
    their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
    them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
    beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

    Chuck
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that you've
    been given trouble before.

    Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with mivascript.org.
    See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is</A>
    Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, Delphi,
    and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for their
    domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for them
    to do so.

    I see your point though.

    And I'm still working on that million ;-)

    Ben


    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your 1000000...
    :-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark unless
    parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) or
    completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
    Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

    I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
    Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not easy.
    The only protection I could find was parody...

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    Chuck,

    The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
    Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is not
    commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard time
    telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability of
    that happening as 1/1000000.

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    While you were sleeping: <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - Driftwood'"
    <[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
    <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark is a
    trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

    Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a violation,
    but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to be
    kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
    (reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
    trademark suit against me.

    You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the legal
    fees =) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on it).

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
    To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

    I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com) I released it at
    the request of Joe Austin.
    They are now using it.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
    To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


    Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

    I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
    registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
    HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe Austin
    and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to Miva Corp if
    the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the names more to
    help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using them actively.
    One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" and "mivatreats.com" I
    did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to use them for community
    building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting company nor was making any
    portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

    The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
    miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my 'Miva
    Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one Miva employee
    wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name that way. It
    was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply looked at the
    damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had known me for years
    and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

    Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and abruptly by
    Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s) immediately
    because they said I was violating their trademark.

    Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
    domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
    names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you use
    the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. Ahem.

    So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their name
    in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will permit
    some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
    community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
    year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
    efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was being
    told "you do not understand the world of business". A real down-the-nose
    sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
    than half the number of years that I have.

    Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But if
    you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely be
    seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin had a
    very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't Joe's
    company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they darn well
    please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or their
    products.

    Go figure...

    Jonathan
    Driftwood Network Services



    At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
    >Hello everybody...
    >
    > I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript
    > community
    web
    >site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in
    >my spare time I developed the web-site.
    > I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
    >
    > First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
    money
    >with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because
    >there were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main
    >problem was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good
    >choice to make
    it
    >all alone.
    >
    > The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
    >developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
    >indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can
    >fill an online CV (only professional information of course) and even
    >publish his photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account
    >(that the developer can administrate too). The developer can also
    >present his mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and
    >link to the web-sites he made.
    > Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
    >developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody
    >can use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in
    >the developer account. There is a blog also for every published script.
    >A tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..)
    >so every developer can add tutorials.
    > There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish
    >open source projects online. I think there are some developers that
    >have already some open source mivascript projects and this could be a
    >good place to publish and promote them.
    > I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine.
    >It could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
    >appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea
    >was to let developers "blog" every function with examples.
    > We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by
    >e-mail (like this one).. perhaps someone have already this
    >functionality.. and
    want
    >to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
    >
    > The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but
    >that's just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both
    >sides projects ppl and coders)
    >
    > So I really need help to the following points:
    >
    > 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this site.
    > 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I
    >already sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to
    >use it.. but no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it
    >or not (once again is for the mivascript community and it is not a
    >commercial website). I really don't want to change the domain name
    >because I think it is very appropriate for those who are searching
    >mivascript resources... What do you think?
    > 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would
    >the best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are
    >some developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I
    >think they can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I
    >already integrated htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this
    >can make it easier to create tutorials)
    > 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to
    >copy sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give
    >ideas about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
    > 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
    > 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
    >
    > There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished.
    > But
    I'll
    >be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
    want
    >to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
    >
    > PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
    system...
    >so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other
    >ideas just let me know..
    >
    >
    > Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for that.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Claudiu Bischoff
    >
    >

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re[2]: Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    I'm just catching after a day away from the 'puter... looks to me like
    this is discussion about an announcement of a Miva resource. Certainly
    looks like it's within the guidelines to me.

    Scott
    IDS

    Monday, January 17, 2005, 7:23:48 PM, you wrote:

    BW> Pardon Bill, we were talking about trademarks and how that would affect
    BW> Claudiu's mvscript project. Does the topic does not interest you, even
    BW> though you posted a previous message regarding it?

    BW> I think everyone is aware of the posting guidelines - I've been on this list
    BW> for years.

    BW> -----Original Message-----
    BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    BW> Of Bill Gilligan
    BW> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:27 PM
    BW> To: [email protected]
    BW> Subject: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript
    BW> community

    BW> Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML formatting),
    BW> and must contain at least one of the following:

    BW> - A usage question, or
    BW> - A response to a usage question, or
    BW> - An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
    BW> - A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

    BW> ======================
    BW> Bill Gilligan
    BW> Gilligan On-Line
    BW> www.gilliganonline.com
    BW> 570-723-4266

    BW> Visit www.MvCentral.com
    BW> For Everything Miva

    BW> -----Original Message-----
    BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    BW> Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    BW> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
    BW> To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
    BW> Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    BW> Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly interested in
    BW> building the mvscript community.

    BW> They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for a
    BW> forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and the
    BW> domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using Mivascript.org.
    BW> Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

    BW> Ben

    BW> -----Original Message-----
    BW> From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
    BW> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
    BW> To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
    BW> Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

    BW> Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each and
    BW> every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations is
    BW> there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not use
    BW> their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
    BW> them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
    BW> beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

    BW> Chuck
    BW> ----- Original Message -----
    BW> From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    BW> To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    BW> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
    BW> Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    BW> I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that you've
    BW> been given trouble before.

    BW> Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with mivascript.org.
    BW> See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is</A>
    BW> Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, Delphi,
    BW> and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for their
    BW> domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for them
    BW> to do so.

    BW> I see your point though.

    BW> And I'm still working on that million ;-)

    BW> Ben


    BW> -----Original Message-----
    BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    BW> Of Chuck Lasker
    BW> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
    BW> To: [email protected]
    BW> Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    BW> Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your 1000000...
    BW> :-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark unless
    BW> parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) or
    BW> completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
    BW> Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

    BW> I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
    BW> Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not easy.
    BW> The only protection I could find was parody...

    BW> Chuck

    BW> ----- Original Message -----
    BW> From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    BW> To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    BW> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
    BW> Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    BW> Chuck,

    BW> The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
    BW> Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is not
    BW> commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard time
    BW> telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability of
    BW> that happening as 1/1000000.

    BW> Ben

    BW> -----Original Message-----
    BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    BW> Of Chuck Lasker
    BW> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
    BW> To: [email protected]
    BW> Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    BW> While you were sleeping: <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

    BW> Chuck

    BW> ----- Original Message -----
    BW> From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    BW> To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - Driftwood'"
    BW> <[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
    BW> <[email protected]>
    BW> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
    BW> Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    BW> I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark is a
    BW> trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

    BW> Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a violation,
    BW> but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to be
    BW> kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
    BW> (reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
    BW> trademark suit against me.

    BW> You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the legal
    BW> fees =) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on it).

    BW> Ben

    BW> -----Original Message-----
    BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    BW> Of Bill Gilligan
    BW> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
    BW> To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    BW> Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

    BW> I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
    BW> I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
    BW> They are now using it.

    BW> Bill

    BW> -----Original Message-----
    BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    BW> Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
    BW> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
    BW> To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    BW> Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


    BW> Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

    BW> I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
    BW> registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
    BW> HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
    BW> Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to Miva
    BW> Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
    BW> names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
    BW> them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" and
    BW> "mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to use
    BW> them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting company
    BW> nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

    BW> The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
    BW> miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
    BW> 'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one Miva
    BW> employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name that
    BW> way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
    BW> looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had known
    BW> me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

    BW> Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and abruptly
    BW> by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
    BW> immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

    BW> Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
    BW> domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
    BW> names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you use
    BW> the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. Ahem.

    BW> So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their name
    BW> in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will permit
    BW> some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
    BW> community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
    BW> year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
    BW> efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was being
    BW> told "you do not understand the world of business". A real down-the-nose
    BW> sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
    BW> than half the number of years that I have.

    BW> Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But if
    BW> you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely be
    BW> seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin had
    BW> a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
    BW> Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they darn
    BW> well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
    BW> their products.

    BW> Go figure...

    BW> Jonathan
    BW> Driftwood Network Services



    BW> At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
    >>Hello everybody...
    >>
    >> I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript community
    BW> web
    >>site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in my
    >>spare time I developed the web-site.
    >> I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
    >>
    >> First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
    BW> money
    >>with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because there
    >>were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main problem
    >>was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to make
    BW> it
    >>all alone.
    >>
    >> The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
    >>developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
    >>indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can fill
    >>an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish his
    >>photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
    >>developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
    >>mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
    >>web-sites he made.
    >> Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
    >>developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody can
    >>use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
    >>developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
    >>tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) so
    >>every developer can add tutorials.
    >> There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish open
    >>source projects online. I think there are some developers that have already
    >>some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
    >>publish and promote them.
    >> I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. It
    >>could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
    >>appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea was to
    >>let developers "blog" every function with examples.
    >> We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by e-mail
    >>(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
    BW> want
    >>to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
    >>
    >> The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but that's
    >>just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides projects
    >>ppl and coders)
    >>
    >> So I really need help to the following points:
    >>
    >> 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this site.
    >> 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I already
    >>sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. but
    >>no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once again
    >>is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
    >>really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
    >>appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do you
    >>think?
    >> 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would the
    >>best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are some
    >>developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think they
    >>can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already integrated
    >>htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
    >>create tutorials)
    >> 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to copy
    >>sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
    >>about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
    >> 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
    >> 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
    >>
    >> There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. But
    BW> I'll
    >>be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
    BW> want
    >>to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
    >>
    >> PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
    BW> system...
    >>so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other ideas
    >>just let me know..
    >>
    >>
    >> Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for that.
    >>
    >> Best regards,
    >> Claudiu Bischoff
    >>
    >>

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    Hi Ben,
    At the risk of going against my own post -
    I don't think it appropriate use of this list to either suggest that Miva is
    mediocre for wanting to protect its trademarks, or asking on this list for
    examples on not being sued for using their name.

    Few here have been on this list longer than I, and I freely released a
    domain name that is now owned by Miva Corp and used to heavily promote their
    sales. I did not walk away from them... In fact, I agreed with them.

    Regardless of whether one could get away with using a name that does not
    make it right. I could use benwalsh.org, or ironcladsecure.org, but why
    would I?

    Why not use mvcentral, or mvhelp, or mvsupport or whatever? No need to use
    miva - unless you just want to build your site off their work.

    I am not saying their tactics are appropriate - but rather they have every
    right to hold their trademark tightly.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 9:24 PM
    To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    Mivascript community


    Pardon Bill, we were talking about trademarks and how that would affect
    Claudiu's mvscript project. Does the topic does not interest you, even
    though you posted a previous message regarding it?

    I think everyone is aware of the posting guidelines - I've been on this list
    for years.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:27 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript
    community

    Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML formatting),
    and must contain at least one of the following:

    - A usage question, or
    - A response to a usage question, or
    - An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
    - A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

    ======================
    Bill Gilligan
    Gilligan On-Line
    www.gilliganonline.com
    570-723-4266

    Visit www.MvCentral.com
    For Everything Miva

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
    To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly interested in
    building the mvscript community.

    They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for a
    forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and the
    domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using Mivascript.org.
    Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
    To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

    Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each and
    every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations is
    there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not use
    their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
    them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
    beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

    Chuck
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that you've
    been given trouble before.

    Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with mivascript.org.
    See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is</A>
    Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, Delphi,
    and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for their
    domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for them
    to do so.

    I see your point though.

    And I'm still working on that million ;-)

    Ben


    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your 1000000...
    :-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark unless
    parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) or
    completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
    Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

    I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
    Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not easy.
    The only protection I could find was parody...

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    Chuck,

    The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
    Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is not
    commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard time
    telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability of
    that happening as 1/1000000.

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    While you were sleeping: <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - Driftwood'"
    <[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
    <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark is a
    trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

    Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a violation,
    but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to be
    kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
    (reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
    trademark suit against me.

    You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the legal
    fees =) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on it).

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
    To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

    I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
    I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
    They are now using it.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
    To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


    Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

    I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
    registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
    HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
    Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to Miva
    Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
    names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
    them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" and
    "mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to use
    them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting company
    nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

    The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
    miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
    'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one Miva
    employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name that
    way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
    looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had known
    me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

    Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and abruptly
    by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
    immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

    Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
    domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
    names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you use
    the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. Ahem.

    So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their name
    in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will permit
    some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
    community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
    year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
    efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was being
    told "you do not understand the world of business". A real down-the-nose
    sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
    than half the number of years that I have.

    Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But if
    you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely be
    seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin had
    a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
    Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they darn
    well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
    their products.

    Go figure...

    Jonathan
    Driftwood Network Services



    At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
    >Hello everybody...
    >
    > I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript community
    web
    >site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in my
    >spare time I developed the web-site.
    > I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
    >
    > First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
    money
    >with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because there
    >were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main problem
    >was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to make
    it
    >all alone.
    >
    > The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
    >developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
    >indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can fill
    >an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish his
    >photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
    >developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
    >mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
    >web-sites he made.
    > Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
    >developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody can
    >use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
    >developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
    >tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) so
    >every developer can add tutorials.
    > There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish open
    >source projects online. I think there are some developers that have already
    >some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
    >publish and promote them.
    > I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. It
    >could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
    >appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea was to
    >let developers "blog" every function with examples.
    > We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by e-mail
    >(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
    want
    >to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
    >
    > The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but that's
    >just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides projects
    >ppl and coders)
    >
    > So I really need help to the following points:
    >
    > 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this site.
    > 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I already
    >sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. but
    >no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once again
    >is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
    >really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
    >appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do you
    >think?
    > 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would the
    >best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are some
    >developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think they
    >can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already integrated
    >htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
    >create tutorials)
    > 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to copy
    >sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
    >about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
    > 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
    > 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
    >
    > There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. But
    I'll
    >be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
    want
    >to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
    >
    > PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
    system...
    >so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other ideas
    >just let me know..
    >
    >
    > Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for that.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Claudiu Bischoff
    >
    >

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    Pardon Bill, we were talking about trademarks and how that would affect
    Claudiu's mvscript project. Does the topic does not interest you, even
    though you posted a previous message regarding it?

    I think everyone is aware of the posting guidelines - I've been on this =
    list
    for years.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:27 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was =
    Mivascript
    community

    Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML =
    formatting),
    and must contain at least one of the following:

    - A usage question, or
    - A response to a usage question, or
    - An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
    - A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Bill Gilligan
    Gilligan On-Line
    www.gilliganonline.com
    570-723-4266

    Visit www.MvCentral.com
    For Everything Miva

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
    To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly =
    interested in
    building the mvscript community.

    They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for =
    a
    forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and =
    the
    domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using =
    Mivascript.org.
    Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
    To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

    Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each =
    and
    every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations =
    is
    there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not =
    use
    their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
    them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
    beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

    Chuck
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that =
    you've
    been given trouble before.

    Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with =
    mivascript.org.
    See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =</A>
    as is
    Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, =
    Delphi,
    and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for =
    their
    domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for =
    them
    to do so.

    I see your point though.

    And I'm still working on that million ;-)

    Ben


    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your =
    1000000...
    :-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark =
    unless
    parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) =
    or
    completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
    Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

    I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
    Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not =
    easy.
    The only protection I could find was parody...

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    Chuck,

    The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
    Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is =
    not
    commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard =
    time
    telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability =
    of
    that happening as 1/1000000.

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    While you were sleeping: =
    <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - =
    Driftwood'"
    <[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
    <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark =
    is a
    trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

    Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a =
    violation,
    but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to =
    be
    kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
    (reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
    trademark suit against me.

    You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the =
    legal
    fees =3D) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on =
    it).

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
    To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

    I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
    I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
    They are now using it.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
    To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


    Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

    I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
    registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
    HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
    Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to =
    Miva
    Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
    names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
    them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" =
    and
    "mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to =
    use
    them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting =
    company
    nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

    The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
    miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
    'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one =
    Miva
    employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name =
    that
    way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
    looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had =
    known
    me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

    Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and =
    abruptly
    by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
    immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

    Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
    domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
    names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you =
    use
    the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. =
    Ahem.

    So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their =
    name
    in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will =
    permit
    some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
    community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
    year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
    efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was =
    being
    told "you do not understand the world of business". A real =
    down-the-nose
    sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
    than half the number of years that I have.

    Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But =
    if
    you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely =
    be
    seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin =
    had
    a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
    Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they =
    darn
    well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
    their products.

    Go figure...

    Jonathan
    Driftwood Network Services



    At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
    >Hello everybody...
    >
    > I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript =
    community
    web
    >site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in =
    my
    >spare time I developed the web-site.
    > I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
    >
    > First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
    money
    >with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because =
    there
    >were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main =
    problem
    >was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to =
    make
    it
    >all alone.
    >
    > The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
    >developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
    >indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can =
    fill
    >an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish =
    his
    >photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
    >developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
    >mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
    >web-sites he made.
    > Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
    >developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody =
    can
    >use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
    >developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
    >tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) =
    so
    >every developer can add tutorials.
    > There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish =
    open
    >source projects online. I think there are some developers that have =
    already
    >some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
    >publish and promote them.
    > I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. =
    It
    >could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
    >appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea =
    was to
    >let developers "blog" every function with examples.
    > We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by =
    e-mail
    >(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
    want
    >to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
    >
    > The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but =
    that's
    >just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides =
    projects
    >ppl and coders)
    >
    > So I really need help to the following points:
    >
    > 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this =
    site.
    > 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I =
    already
    >sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. =
    but
    >no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once =
    again
    >is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
    >really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
    >appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do =
    you
    >think?
    > 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would =
    the
    >best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are =
    some
    >developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think =
    they
    >can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already =
    integrated
    >htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
    >create tutorials)
    > 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to =
    copy
    >sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
    >about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
    > 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
    > 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
    >
    > There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. =
    But
    I'll
    >be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
    want
    >to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
    >
    > PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
    system...
    >so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other =
    ideas
    >just let me know..
    >
    >
    > Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for =
    that.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Claudiu Bischoff
    >
    >

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML formatting),
    and must contain at least one of the following:

    - A usage question, or
    - A response to a usage question, or
    - An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
    - A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

    ======================
    Bill Gilligan
    Gilligan On-Line
    www.gilliganonline.com
    570-723-4266

    Visit www.MvCentral.com
    For Everything Miva

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
    To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly interested in
    building the mvscript community.

    They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for a
    forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and the
    domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using Mivascript.org.
    Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
    To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

    Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each and
    every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations is
    there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not use
    their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
    them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
    beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

    Chuck
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that you've
    been given trouble before.

    Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with mivascript.org.
    See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is</A>
    Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, Delphi,
    and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for their
    domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for them
    to do so.

    I see your point though.

    And I'm still working on that million ;-)

    Ben


    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your 1000000...
    :-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark unless
    parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) or
    completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
    Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

    I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
    Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not easy.
    The only protection I could find was parody...

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    Chuck,

    The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
    Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is not
    commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard time
    telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability of
    that happening as 1/1000000.

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    While you were sleeping: <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - Driftwood'"
    <[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
    <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark is a
    trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

    Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a violation,
    but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to be
    kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
    (reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
    trademark suit against me.

    You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the legal
    fees =) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on it).

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
    To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

    I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
    I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
    They are now using it.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
    To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


    Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

    I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
    registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
    HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
    Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to Miva
    Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
    names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
    them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" and
    "mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to use
    them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting company
    nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

    The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
    miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
    'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one Miva
    employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name that
    way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
    looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had known
    me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

    Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and abruptly
    by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
    immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

    Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
    domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
    names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you use
    the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. Ahem.

    So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their name
    in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will permit
    some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
    community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
    year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
    efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was being
    told "you do not understand the world of business". A real down-the-nose
    sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
    than half the number of years that I have.

    Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But if
    you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely be
    seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin had
    a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
    Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they darn
    well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
    their products.

    Go figure...

    Jonathan
    Driftwood Network Services



    At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
    >Hello everybody...
    >
    > I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript community
    web
    >site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in my
    >spare time I developed the web-site.
    > I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
    >
    > First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
    money
    >with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because there
    >were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main problem
    >was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to make
    it
    >all alone.
    >
    > The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
    >developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
    >indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can fill
    >an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish his
    >photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
    >developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
    >mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
    >web-sites he made.
    > Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
    >developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody can
    >use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
    >developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
    >tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) so
    >every developer can add tutorials.
    > There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish open
    >source projects online. I think there are some developers that have already
    >some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
    >publish and promote them.
    > I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. It
    >could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
    >appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea was to
    >let developers "blog" every function with examples.
    > We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by e-mail
    >(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
    want
    >to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
    >
    > The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but that's
    >just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides projects
    >ppl and coders)
    >
    > So I really need help to the following points:
    >
    > 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this site.
    > 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I already
    >sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. but
    >no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once again
    >is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
    >really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
    >appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do you
    >think?
    > 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would the
    >best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are some
    >developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think they
    >can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already integrated
    >htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
    >create tutorials)
    > 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to copy
    >sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
    >about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
    > 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
    > 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
    >
    > There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. But
    I'll
    >be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
    want
    >to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
    >
    > PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
    system...
    >so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other ideas
    >just let me know..
    >
    >
    > Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for that.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Claudiu Bischoff
    >
    >

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly =
    interested in
    building the mvscript community.

    They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for =
    a
    forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and =
    the
    domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using =
    Mivascript.org.=20
    Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]=20
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
    To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

    Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each =
    and
    every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations =
    is
    there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not =
    use
    their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
    them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
    beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

    Chuck
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that =
    you've
    been given trouble before.

    Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with =
    mivascript.org.
    See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =</A>
    as is
    Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, =
    Delphi,
    and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for =
    their
    domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for =
    them
    to do so.

    I see your point though.

    And I'm still working on that million ;-)

    Ben


    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your =
    1000000...
    :-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark =
    unless
    parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) =
    or
    completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
    Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

    I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
    Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not =
    easy.
    The only protection I could find was parody...

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    Chuck,

    The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
    Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is =
    not
    commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard =
    time
    telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability =
    of
    that happening as 1/1000000.

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    While you were sleeping: =
    <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - =
    Driftwood'"
    <[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
    <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark =
    is a
    trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

    Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a =
    violation,
    but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to =
    be
    kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
    (reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
    trademark suit against me.

    You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the =
    legal
    fees =3D) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on =
    it).

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
    To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

    I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
    I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
    They are now using it.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
    To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


    Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

    I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
    registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
    HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
    Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to =
    Miva
    Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
    names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
    them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" =
    and
    "mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to =
    use
    them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting =
    company
    nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

    The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
    miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
    'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one =
    Miva
    employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name =
    that
    way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
    looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had =
    known
    me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

    Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and =
    abruptly
    by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
    immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

    Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
    domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
    names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you =
    use
    the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. =
    Ahem.

    So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their =
    name
    in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will =
    permit
    some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
    community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
    year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
    efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was =
    being
    told "you do not understand the world of business". A real =
    down-the-nose
    sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
    than half the number of years that I have.

    Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But =
    if
    you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely =
    be
    seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin =
    had
    a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
    Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they =
    darn
    well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
    their products.

    Go figure...

    Jonathan
    Driftwood Network Services



    At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
    >Hello everybody...
    >
    > I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript =
    community
    web
    >site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in =
    my
    >spare time I developed the web-site.
    > I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
    >
    > First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
    money
    >with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because =
    there
    >were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main =
    problem
    >was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to =
    make
    it
    >all alone.
    >
    > The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
    >developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
    >indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can =
    fill
    >an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish =
    his
    >photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
    >developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
    >mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
    >web-sites he made.
    > Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
    >developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody =
    can
    >use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
    >developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
    >tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) =
    so
    >every developer can add tutorials.
    > There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish =
    open
    >source projects online. I think there are some developers that have =
    already
    >some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
    >publish and promote them.
    > I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. =
    It
    >could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
    >appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea =
    was to
    >let developers "blog" every function with examples.
    > We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by =
    e-mail
    >(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
    want
    >to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
    >
    > The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but =
    that's
    >just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides =
    projects
    >ppl and coders)
    >
    > So I really need help to the following points:
    >
    > 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this =
    site.
    > 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I =
    already
    >sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. =
    but
    >no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once =
    again
    >is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
    >really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
    >appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do =
    you
    >think?
    > 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would =
    the
    >best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are =
    some
    >developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think =
    they
    >can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already =
    integrated
    >htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
    >create tutorials)
    > 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to =
    copy
    >sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
    >about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
    > 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
    > 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
    >
    > There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. =
    But
    I'll
    >be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
    want
    >to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
    >
    > PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
    system...
    >so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other =
    ideas
    >just let me know..
    >
    >
    > Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for =
    that.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Claudiu Bischoff
    >
    >

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each and
    every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations is
    there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not use
    their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
    them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
    beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

    Chuck
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


    I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that you've
    been given trouble before.

    Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with mivascript.org.
    See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is</A>
    Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, Delphi,
    and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for their
    domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for them
    to do so.

    I see your point though.

    And I'm still working on that million ;-)

    Ben


    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your 1000000...
    :-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark unless
    parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) or
    completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
    Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

    I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
    Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not easy.
    The only protection I could find was parody...

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    Chuck,

    The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
    Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is not
    commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard time
    telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability of
    that happening as 1/1000000.

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    While you were sleeping: <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - Driftwood'"
    <[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
    <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark is a
    trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

    Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a violation,
    but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to be
    kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
    (reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
    trademark suit against me.

    You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the legal
    fees =) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on it).

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
    To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

    I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
    I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
    They are now using it.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
    To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


    Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

    I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
    registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
    HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
    Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to Miva
    Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
    names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
    them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" and
    "mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to use
    them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting company
    nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

    The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
    miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
    'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one Miva
    employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name that
    way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
    looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had known
    me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

    Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and abruptly
    by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
    immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

    Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
    domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
    names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you use
    the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. Ahem.

    So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their name
    in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will permit
    some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
    community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
    year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
    efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was being
    told "you do not understand the world of business". A real down-the-nose
    sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
    than half the number of years that I have.

    Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But if
    you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely be
    seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin had
    a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
    Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they darn
    well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
    their products.

    Go figure...

    Jonathan
    Driftwood Network Services



    At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
    >Hello everybody...
    >
    > I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript community
    web
    >site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in my
    >spare time I developed the web-site.
    > I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
    >
    > First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
    money
    >with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because there
    >were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main problem
    >was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to make
    it
    >all alone.
    >
    > The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
    >developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
    >indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can fill
    >an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish his
    >photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
    >developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
    >mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
    >web-sites he made.
    > Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
    >developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody can
    >use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
    >developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
    >tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) so
    >every developer can add tutorials.
    > There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish open
    >source projects online. I think there are some developers that have already
    >some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
    >publish and promote them.
    > I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. It
    >could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
    >appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea was to
    >let developers "blog" every function with examples.
    > We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by e-mail
    >(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
    want
    >to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
    >
    > The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but that's
    >just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides projects
    >ppl and coders)
    >
    > So I really need help to the following points:
    >
    > 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this site.
    > 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I already
    >sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. but
    >no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once again
    >is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
    >really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
    >appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do you
    >think?
    > 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would the
    >best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are some
    >developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think they
    >can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already integrated
    >htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
    >create tutorials)
    > 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to copy
    >sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
    >about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
    > 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
    > 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
    >
    > There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. But
    I'll
    >be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
    want
    >to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
    >
    > PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
    system...
    >so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other ideas
    >just let me know..
    >
    >
    > Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for that.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Claudiu Bischoff
    >
    >

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that =
    you've
    been given trouble before.

    Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with =
    mivascript.org.
    See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =</A>
    as is
    Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, =
    Delphi,
    and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for =
    their
    domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for =
    them
    to do so.

    I see your point though.

    And I'm still working on that million ;-)

    Ben


    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your =
    1000000...
    :-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark =
    unless
    parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) =
    or
    completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
    Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

    I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
    Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not =
    easy.
    The only protection I could find was parody...

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    Chuck,

    The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
    Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is =
    not
    commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard =
    time
    telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability =
    of
    that happening as 1/1000000.

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Chuck Lasker
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

    While you were sleeping: =
    <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

    Chuck

    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
    To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - =
    Driftwood'"
    <[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
    <[email protected]>
    Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


    I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark =
    is a
    trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

    Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a =
    violation,
    but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to =
    be
    kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
    (reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
    trademark suit against me.

    You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the =
    legal
    fees =3D) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on =
    it).

    Ben

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
    Behalf
    Of Bill Gilligan
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
    To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

    I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
    I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
    They are now using it.

    Bill

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
    To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


    Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

    I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
    registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
    HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
    Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to =
    Miva
    Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
    names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
    them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" =
    and
    "mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to =
    use
    them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting =
    company
    nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

    The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
    miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
    'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one =
    Miva
    employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name =
    that
    way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
    looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had =
    known
    me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

    Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and =
    abruptly
    by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
    immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

    Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
    domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
    names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you =
    use
    the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. =
    Ahem.

    So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their =
    name
    in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will =
    permit
    some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
    community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
    year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
    efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was =
    being
    told "you do not understand the world of business". A real =
    down-the-nose
    sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
    than half the number of years that I have.

    Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But =
    if
    you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely =
    be
    seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin =
    had
    a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
    Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they =
    darn
    well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
    their products.

    Go figure...

    Jonathan
    Driftwood Network Services



    At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
    >Hello everybody...
    >
    > I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript =
    community
    web
    >site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in =
    my
    >spare time I developed the web-site.
    > I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
    >
    > First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
    money
    >with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because =
    there
    >were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main =
    problem
    >was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to =
    make
    it
    >all alone.
    >
    > The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
    >developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
    >indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can =
    fill
    >an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish =
    his
    >photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
    >developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
    >mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
    >web-sites he made.
    > Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
    >developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody =
    can
    >use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
    >developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
    >tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) =
    so
    >every developer can add tutorials.
    > There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish =
    open
    >source projects online. I think there are some developers that have =
    already
    >some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
    >publish and promote them.
    > I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. =
    It
    >could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
    >appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea =
    was to
    >let developers "blog" every function with examples.
    > We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by =
    e-mail
    >(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
    want
    >to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
    >
    > The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but =
    that's
    >just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides =
    projects
    >ppl and coders)
    >
    > So I really need help to the following points:
    >
    > 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this =
    site.
    > 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I =
    already
    >sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. =
    but
    >no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once =
    again
    >is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
    >really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
    >appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do =
    you
    >think?
    > 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would =
    the
    >best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are =
    some
    >developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think =
    they
    >can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already =
    integrated
    >htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
    >create tutorials)
    > 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to =
    copy
    >sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
    >about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
    > 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
    > 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
    >
    > There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. =
    But
    I'll
    >be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
    want
    >to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
    >
    > PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
    system...
    >so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other =
    ideas
    >just let me know..
    >
    >
    > Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for =
    that.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Claudiu Bischoff
    >
    >

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest started a topic Trademarks - was Mivascript community

    Trademarks - was Mivascript community



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
    > Behalf Of Ben Walsh
    > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:03 AM
    > To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
    > Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
    > Mivascript community

    > I don't see anything wrong with using a domain with 'miva' in it for
    > community building, but that's my viewpoint. Whether it is right
    > to discuss
    > trademarks on-list and how that would affect a Miva project, that's your
    > personal view.
    > Miva is protecting their trademark? How is someone hurting it by
    > creating a
    > community/coding site? Their policies seem a bit detrimental. Go for it if
    > they're shutting down somebody hurting their business.

    Disregarding Miva's stance on this for a moment, the reason a company should
    be very deligent in defending the use of thier trademarks in web sites is
    simply a matter of general protection.

    If I let you use PhosphorMedia in a site that is benifical to us, then it
    becomes harder to defend the rights to it when someone wants to use that
    domain in a competitive site.

    -Bruce Golub
    PHOSPHOR Media
    www.phosphormedia.com
    --
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