Trademarks - was Mivascript community

Mivascript community Part II



Hello everybody..

I keep you updated with the mivascript.org website. Till now we have.. 4
developers registered online. We have 2 of them who already help us with the
text corrections (thanks to Richard Grevers and Bill Johnson).
Let me give you once again the link to create your mivascript developer
account:
<A HREF ="http://www.mivascript.org/index.mvc?Ecran=COMP&Module=DEVC or">http://www.mivascript.org/index.mvc?...MP&Module=DEVC or</A>
<A HREF ="http://www.asmallurl.com/1k">http://www.asmallurl.com/1k</A>

Please participate to our project. Without your support we will never get
this project online.

Thank you again,
Claudiu Bischoff

Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:23:06 +0100, Claudiu Bischoff
<[email protected]> gave utterance to the following:

I sent you a page of notes on the signup form but the email bounced
(access denied)
--
Richard Grevers
Between two evils always pick the one you haven't tried

Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



Hello

Thank you everybody for your interest to that issue... I read the messages
and I realize that I'm not alone in this project. I continue the web site
development (I have only the private messages and tutorials features to
finish)..

In the next step.. I would like to get in contact (off list) with some of
you who wants to help me with the beta testing of the site. I really need
help on the language side. I won't put the website online till I'm not sure
that all the texts are correctly spelled.. There are not so much to verify
(a few pages).. but it's important. And next I would like to have your
opinion (please please.. participate..) on the new Interview part of the
website. I'm decided to animate the content with some articles and
interviews on the developers. This website should let us know better who the
mivascript developers are.. theirs goals.. theirs business.. etc.. I
proposed first that to Ivo.. but no response.. so I don't think he has the
time..

So.. I propose that everybody to create his mivascript.org account so I can
propose every member the interview.. I put online only the creation form of
the account. No other link works ..
The registration work like that:
1. Creation of the account
2. Activation of the account (a valid e-mail must be used)

Once I have some members accounts .. I'll propose everybody the interview.
Those who are well known on the list will have priority .. because they
participate more so.. we can learn more from their experience.

THE LINK: <A HREF ="http://www.mivascript.org/index.mvc?Ecran=COMP&Module=DEVC">http://www.mivascript.org/index.mvc?Ecran=COMP&Module=DEVC</A>

Please contact me off list if you have any problem... [email protected]

PS: Please participate to the project.. without you all, we won't create
this community.. Take 2 min to make the registration.. it's not so much ..
:)

Thank you
Claudiu Bischoff

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Ben Walsh
Sent: mardi 18 janvier 2005 22:27
To: 'Bruce - Phosphor'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
Mivascript community


I agree with you Bruce about a company protecting their trademark, but using
a trademark for commentary/forum purposes does not constitute a violation.
That's the key point. I checked with my trademark attorney on that to make
sure. That's the way it is.

A trademark is all about protecting its use in commerce. Creating a forum
regarding Miva script containing "mivascript" in the domain does not
constitute a violation of the trademark because:

A. You are not competing with Miva or using their trademark for commercial
purposes
B. Nobody can confuse the fact that you are referring to a product created
by Miva.

This should not be confused with cybersquatting, where one registers the
trademarks/company name of an organization for defamatory or monetary
reasons (which is illegal under the Anti-Cybersquatting Consumer Protection
Act).

Enough said probably, I just couldn't let it go ;-)

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bruce - Phosphor
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 1:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
Mivascript community

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
> Behalf Of Ben Walsh
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:03 AM
> To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
> Mivascript community

> I don't see anything wrong with using a domain with 'miva' in it for
> community building, but that's my viewpoint. Whether it is right
> to discuss
> trademarks on-list and how that would affect a Miva project, that's your
> personal view.
> Miva is protecting their trademark? How is someone hurting it by
> creating a
> community/coding site? Their policies seem a bit detrimental. Go for it if
> they're shutting down somebody hurting their business.

Disregarding Miva's stance on this for a moment, the reason a company should
be very deligent in defending the use of thier trademarks in web sites is
simply a matter of general protection.

If I let you use PhosphorMedia in a site that is benifical to us, then it
becomes harder to defend the rights to it when someone wants to use that
domain in a competitive site.

-Bruce Golub
PHOSPHOR Media
www.phosphormedia.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005

Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



I agree with you Bruce about a company protecting their trademark, but =
using
a trademark for commentary/forum purposes does not constitute a =
violation.
That's the key point. I checked with my trademark attorney on that to =
make
sure. That's the way it is.

A trademark is all about protecting its use in commerce. Creating a =
forum
regarding Miva script containing "mivascript" in the domain does not
constitute a violation of the trademark because:

A. You are not competing with Miva or using their trademark for =
commercial
purposes
B. Nobody can confuse the fact that you are referring to a product =
created
by Miva.

This should not be confused with cybersquatting, where one registers the
trademarks/company name of an organization for defamatory or monetary
reasons (which is illegal under the Anti-Cybersquatting Consumer =
Protection
Act).

Enough said probably, I just couldn't let it go ;-)

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Bruce - Phosphor
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 1:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
Mivascript community

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
> Behalf Of Ben Walsh
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:03 AM
> To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
> Mivascript community

> I don't see anything wrong with using a domain with 'miva' in it for
> community building, but that's my viewpoint. Whether it is right
> to discuss
> trademarks on-list and how that would affect a Miva project, that's =
your
> personal view.
> Miva is protecting their trademark? How is someone hurting it by
> creating a
> community/coding site? Their policies seem a bit detrimental. Go for =
it if
> they're shutting down somebody hurting their business.

Disregarding Miva's stance on this for a moment, the reason a company =
should
be very deligent in defending the use of thier trademarks in web sites =
is
simply a matter of general protection.

If I let you use PhosphorMedia in a site that is benifical to us, then =
it
becomes harder to defend the rights to it when someone wants to use that
domain in a competitive site.

-Bruce Golub
PHOSPHOR Media
www.phosphormedia.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005

Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



I don't question your commitment to the Miva community Bill. Who's been
around longer or who codes better makes no difference.

I don't see anything wrong with using a domain with 'miva' in it for
community building, but that's my viewpoint. Whether it is right to =
discuss
trademarks on-list and how that would affect a Miva project, that's your
personal view.

Miva is protecting their trademark? How is someone hurting it by =
creating a
community/coding site? Their policies seem a bit detrimental. Go for it =
if
they're shutting down somebody hurting their business.

In an effort to not prolong this thread, I'll not have any further =
comment.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Gilligan [mailto:[email protected]]=20
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 10:41 PM
To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
Mivascript community

Hi Ben,
At the risk of going against my own post -
I don't think it appropriate use of this list to either suggest that =
Miva is
mediocre for wanting to protect its trademarks, or asking on this list =
for
examples on not being sued for using their name.

Few here have been on this list longer than I, and I freely released a
domain name that is now owned by Miva Corp and used to heavily promote =
their
sales. I did not walk away from them... In fact, I agreed with them.

Regardless of whether one could get away with using a name that does not
make it right. I could use benwalsh.org, or ironcladsecure.org, but why
would I?

Why not use mvcentral, or mvhelp, or mvsupport or whatever? No need to =
use
miva - unless you just want to build your site off their work.

I am not saying their tactics are appropriate - but rather they have =
every
right to hold their trademark tightly.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Ben Walsh
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 9:24 PM
To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
Mivascript community


Pardon Bill, we were talking about trademarks and how that would affect
Claudiu's mvscript project. Does the topic does not interest you, even
though you posted a previous message regarding it?

I think everyone is aware of the posting guidelines - I've been on this =
list
for years.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was =
Mivascript
community

Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML =
formatting),
and must contain at least one of the following:

- A usage question, or
- A response to a usage question, or
- An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
- A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Bill Gilligan
Gilligan On-Line
www.gilliganonline.com
570-723-4266

Visit www.MvCentral.com
For Everything Miva

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Ben Walsh
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly =
interested in
building the mvscript community.

They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for =
a
forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and =
the
domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using =
Mivascript.org.
Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each =
and
every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations =
is
there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not =
use
their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that =
you've
been given trouble before.

Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with =
mivascript.org.
See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =</A>
as is
Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, =
Delphi,
and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for =
their
domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for =
them
to do so.

I see your point though.

And I'm still working on that million ;-)

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your =
1000000...
:-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark =
unless
parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) =
or
completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not =
easy.
The only protection I could find was parody...

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


Chuck,

The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is =
not
commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard =
time
telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability =
of
that happening as 1/1000000.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

While you were sleeping: =
<A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - =
Driftwood'"
<[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark =
is a
trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a =
violation,
but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to =
be
kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
(reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
trademark suit against me.

You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the =
legal
fees =3D) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on =
it).

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
They are now using it.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to =
Miva
Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" =
and
"mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to =
use
them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting =
company
nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one =
Miva
employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name =
that
way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had =
known
me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and =
abruptly
by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you =
use
the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. =
Ahem.

So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their =
name
in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will =
permit
some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was =
being
told "you do not understand the world of business". A real =
down-the-nose
sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
than half the number of years that I have.

Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But =
if
you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely =
be
seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin =
had
a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they =
darn
well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
their products.

Go figure...

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services



At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
>Hello everybody...
>
> I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript =
community
web
>site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in =
my
>spare time I developed the web-site.
> I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
>
> First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
money
>with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because =
there
>were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main =
problem
>was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to =
make
it
>all alone.
>
> The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
>developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
>indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can =
fill
>an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish =
his
>photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
>developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
>mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
>web-sites he made.
> Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
>developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody =
can
>use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
>developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
>tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) =
so
>every developer can add tutorials.
> There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish =
open
>source projects online. I think there are some developers that have =
already
>some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
>publish and promote them.
> I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. =
It
>could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
>appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea =
was to
>let developers "blog" every function with examples.
> We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by =
e-mail
>(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
want
>to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
>
> The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but =
that's
>just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides =
projects
>ppl and coders)
>
> So I really need help to the following points:
>
> 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this =
site.
> 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I =
already
>sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. =
but
>no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once =
again
>is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
>really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
>appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do =
you
>think?
> 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would =
the
>best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are =
some
>developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think =
they
>can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already =
integrated
>htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
>create tutorials)
> 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to =
copy
>sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
>about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
> 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
> 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
>
> There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. =
But
I'll
>be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
want
>to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
>
> PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
system...
>so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other =
ideas
>just let me know..
>
>
> Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for =
that.
>
> Best regards,
> Claudiu Bischoff
>
>

Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



Hi Bill,

I believe the topic is very appropriate for this list, even though I think
that it's highly speculative - after all there hasn't been any formal answer
from the side of FindWhat to the issue. If they want to protect their
trademark - fine, I think we all understand this. Is it a wise choice? Well,
this can be discussed.

Nevertheless, quote the list policies to cut off such an important
discussion which directly affects the future of Mivascript, the Mivascript
community and therefore directly or indirectly also the professional life of
most of the people on this list is quite a bummer. The issue at stake is the
most important "USAGE QUESTION" of them all. The discussion is not about
using mivascript.org or about trademark issues, but about Claudiu's project
and how to drive the Mivascript community forward.

A while ago, Joe Austin (at the time still boss of Miva Corp) himself
indicated privately that they (Miva) had no intentions to support or promote
Mivascript. So either we all drop this language and go somewhere else, write
Merchant modules or we try to keep this thing alive on our own. At this
point of time Claudiu's initiative is probably the best thing that could
happen to us, and my suggestion to petition (maybe with an open letter?) to
turn it into open source might maybe make a difference. We don't know until
we ask. If they don't like it, well, fine.

My understanding was that it was in this context when Chuck called them
"mediocre" as long as they "don't open up and think bigger", and he definely
has a very valid point.

Markus





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 11:41 PM
To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
Mivascript community

Hi Ben,
At the risk of going against my own post - I don't think it appropriate use
of this list to either suggest that Miva is mediocre for wanting to protect
its trademarks, or asking on this list for examples on not being sued for
using their name.

Few here have been on this list longer than I, and I freely released a
domain name that is now owned by Miva Corp and used to heavily promote their
sales. I did not walk away from them... In fact, I agreed with them.

Regardless of whether one could get away with using a name that does not
make it right. I could use benwalsh.org, or ironcladsecure.org, but why
would I?

Why not use mvcentral, or mvhelp, or mvsupport or whatever? No need to use
miva - unless you just want to build your site off their work.

I am not saying their tactics are appropriate - but rather they have every
right to hold their trademark tightly.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Ben Walsh
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 9:24 PM
To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
Mivascript community


Pardon Bill, we were talking about trademarks and how that would affect
Claudiu's mvscript project. Does the topic does not interest you, even
though you posted a previous message regarding it?

I think everyone is aware of the posting guidelines - I've been on this list
for years.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript
community

Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML formatting),
and must contain at least one of the following:

- A usage question, or
- A response to a usage question, or
- An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
- A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

======================
Bill Gilligan
Gilligan On-Line
www.gilliganonline.com
570-723-4266

Visit www.MvCentral.com
For Everything Miva

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Ben Walsh
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly interested in
building the mvscript community.

They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for a
forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and the
domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using Mivascript.org.
Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each and
every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations is
there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not use
their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that you've
been given trouble before.

Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with mivascript.org.
See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is</A>
Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, Delphi,
and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for their
domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for them
to do so.

I see your point though.

And I'm still working on that million ;-)

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your 1000000...
:-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark unless
parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) or
completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not easy.
The only protection I could find was parody...

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


Chuck,

The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is not
commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard time
telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability of
that happening as 1/1000000.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

While you were sleeping: <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - Driftwood'"
<[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark is a
trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a violation,
but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to be
kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
(reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
trademark suit against me.

You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the legal
fees =) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on it).

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com) I released it at
the request of Joe Austin.
They are now using it.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe Austin
and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to Miva Corp if
the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the names more to
help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using them actively.
One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" and "mivatreats.com" I
did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to use them for community
building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting company nor was making any
portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my 'Miva
Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one Miva employee
wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name that way. It
was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply looked at the
damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had known me for years
and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and abruptly by
Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s) immediately
because they said I was violating their trademark.

Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you use
the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. Ahem.

So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their name
in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will permit
some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was being
told "you do not understand the world of business". A real down-the-nose
sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
than half the number of years that I have.

Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But if
you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely be
seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin had a
very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't Joe's
company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they darn well
please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or their
products.

Go figure...

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services



At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
>Hello everybody...
>
> I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript
> community
web
>site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in
>my spare time I developed the web-site.
> I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
>
> First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
money
>with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because
>there were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main
>problem was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good
>choice to make
it
>all alone.
>
> The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
>developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
>indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can
>fill an online CV (only professional information of course) and even
>publish his photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account
>(that the developer can administrate too). The developer can also
>present his mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and
>link to the web-sites he made.
> Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
>developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody
>can use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in
>the developer account. There is a blog also for every published script.
>A tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..)
>so every developer can add tutorials.
> There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish
>open source projects online. I think there are some developers that
>have already some open source mivascript projects and this could be a
>good place to publish and promote them.
> I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine.
>It could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
>appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea
>was to let developers "blog" every function with examples.
> We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by
>e-mail (like this one).. perhaps someone have already this
>functionality.. and
want
>to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
>
> The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but
>that's just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both
>sides projects ppl and coders)
>
> So I really need help to the following points:
>
> 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this site.
> 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I
>already sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to
>use it.. but no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it
>or not (once again is for the mivascript community and it is not a
>commercial website). I really don't want to change the domain name
>because I think it is very appropriate for those who are searching
>mivascript resources... What do you think?
> 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would
>the best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are
>some developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I
>think they can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I
>already integrated htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this
>can make it easier to create tutorials)
> 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to
>copy sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give
>ideas about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
> 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
> 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
>
> There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished.
> But
I'll
>be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
want
>to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
>
> PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
system...
>so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other
>ideas just let me know..
>
>
> Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for that.
>
> Best regards,
> Claudiu Bischoff
>
>

Re[2]: Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



I'm just catching after a day away from the 'puter... looks to me like
this is discussion about an announcement of a Miva resource. Certainly
looks like it's within the guidelines to me.

Scott
IDS

Monday, January 17, 2005, 7:23:48 PM, you wrote:

BW> Pardon Bill, we were talking about trademarks and how that would affect
BW> Claudiu's mvscript project. Does the topic does not interest you, even
BW> though you posted a previous message regarding it?

BW> I think everyone is aware of the posting guidelines - I've been on this list
BW> for years.

BW> -----Original Message-----
BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
BW> Of Bill Gilligan
BW> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:27 PM
BW> To: [email protected]
BW> Subject: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript
BW> community

BW> Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML formatting),
BW> and must contain at least one of the following:

BW> - A usage question, or
BW> - A response to a usage question, or
BW> - An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
BW> - A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

BW> ======================
BW> Bill Gilligan
BW> Gilligan On-Line
BW> www.gilliganonline.com
BW> 570-723-4266

BW> Visit www.MvCentral.com
BW> For Everything Miva

BW> -----Original Message-----
BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
BW> Behalf Of Ben Walsh
BW> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
BW> To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
BW> Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


BW> Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly interested in
BW> building the mvscript community.

BW> They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for a
BW> forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and the
BW> domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using Mivascript.org.
BW> Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

BW> Ben

BW> -----Original Message-----
BW> From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
BW> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
BW> To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
BW> Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

BW> Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each and
BW> every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations is
BW> there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not use
BW> their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
BW> them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
BW> beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

BW> Chuck
BW> ----- Original Message -----
BW> From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
BW> To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
BW> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
BW> Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


BW> I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that you've
BW> been given trouble before.

BW> Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with mivascript.org.
BW> See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is</A>
BW> Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, Delphi,
BW> and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for their
BW> domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for them
BW> to do so.

BW> I see your point though.

BW> And I'm still working on that million ;-)

BW> Ben


BW> -----Original Message-----
BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
BW> Of Chuck Lasker
BW> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
BW> To: [email protected]
BW> Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

BW> Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your 1000000...
BW> :-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark unless
BW> parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) or
BW> completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
BW> Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

BW> I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
BW> Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not easy.
BW> The only protection I could find was parody...

BW> Chuck

BW> ----- Original Message -----
BW> From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
BW> To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
BW> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
BW> Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


BW> Chuck,

BW> The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
BW> Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is not
BW> commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard time
BW> telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability of
BW> that happening as 1/1000000.

BW> Ben

BW> -----Original Message-----
BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
BW> Of Chuck Lasker
BW> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
BW> To: [email protected]
BW> Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

BW> While you were sleeping: <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

BW> Chuck

BW> ----- Original Message -----
BW> From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
BW> To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - Driftwood'"
BW> <[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
BW> <[email protected]>
BW> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
BW> Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


BW> I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark is a
BW> trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

BW> Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a violation,
BW> but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to be
BW> kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
BW> (reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
BW> trademark suit against me.

BW> You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the legal
BW> fees =) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on it).

BW> Ben

BW> -----Original Message-----
BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
BW> Of Bill Gilligan
BW> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
BW> To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
BW> Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

BW> I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
BW> I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
BW> They are now using it.

BW> Bill

BW> -----Original Message-----
BW> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
BW> Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
BW> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
BW> To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
BW> Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


BW> Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

BW> I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
BW> registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
BW> HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
BW> Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to Miva
BW> Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
BW> names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
BW> them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" and
BW> "mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to use
BW> them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting company
BW> nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

BW> The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
BW> miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
BW> 'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one Miva
BW> employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name that
BW> way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
BW> looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had known
BW> me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

BW> Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and abruptly
BW> by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
BW> immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

BW> Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
BW> domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
BW> names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you use
BW> the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. Ahem.

BW> So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their name
BW> in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will permit
BW> some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
BW> community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
BW> year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
BW> efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was being
BW> told "you do not understand the world of business". A real down-the-nose
BW> sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
BW> than half the number of years that I have.

BW> Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But if
BW> you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely be
BW> seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin had
BW> a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
BW> Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they darn
BW> well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
BW> their products.

BW> Go figure...

BW> Jonathan
BW> Driftwood Network Services



BW> At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
>>Hello everybody...
>>
>> I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript community
BW> web
>>site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in my
>>spare time I developed the web-site.
>> I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
>>
>> First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
BW> money
>>with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because there
>>were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main problem
>>was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to make
BW> it
>>all alone.
>>
>> The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
>>developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
>>indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can fill
>>an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish his
>>photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
>>developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
>>mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
>>web-sites he made.
>> Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
>>developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody can
>>use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
>>developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
>>tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) so
>>every developer can add tutorials.
>> There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish open
>>source projects online. I think there are some developers that have already
>>some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
>>publish and promote them.
>> I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. It
>>could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
>>appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea was to
>>let developers "blog" every function with examples.
>> We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by e-mail
>>(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
BW> want
>>to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
>>
>> The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but that's
>>just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides projects
>>ppl and coders)
>>
>> So I really need help to the following points:
>>
>> 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this site.
>> 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I already
>>sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. but
>>no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once again
>>is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
>>really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
>>appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do you
>>think?
>> 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would the
>>best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are some
>>developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think they
>>can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already integrated
>>htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
>>create tutorials)
>> 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to copy
>>sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
>>about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
>> 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
>> 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
>>
>> There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. But
BW> I'll
>>be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
BW> want
>>to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
>>
>> PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
BW> system...
>>so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other ideas
>>just let me know..
>>
>>
>> Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for that.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Claudiu Bischoff
>>
>>

Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



Hi Ben,
At the risk of going against my own post -
I don't think it appropriate use of this list to either suggest that Miva is
mediocre for wanting to protect its trademarks, or asking on this list for
examples on not being sued for using their name.

Few here have been on this list longer than I, and I freely released a
domain name that is now owned by Miva Corp and used to heavily promote their
sales. I did not walk away from them... In fact, I agreed with them.

Regardless of whether one could get away with using a name that does not
make it right. I could use benwalsh.org, or ironcladsecure.org, but why
would I?

Why not use mvcentral, or mvhelp, or mvsupport or whatever? No need to use
miva - unless you just want to build your site off their work.

I am not saying their tactics are appropriate - but rather they have every
right to hold their trademark tightly.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Ben Walsh
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 9:24 PM
To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
Mivascript community


Pardon Bill, we were talking about trademarks and how that would affect
Claudiu's mvscript project. Does the topic does not interest you, even
though you posted a previous message regarding it?

I think everyone is aware of the posting guidelines - I've been on this list
for years.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript
community

Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML formatting),
and must contain at least one of the following:

- A usage question, or
- A response to a usage question, or
- An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
- A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

======================
Bill Gilligan
Gilligan On-Line
www.gilliganonline.com
570-723-4266

Visit www.MvCentral.com
For Everything Miva

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Ben Walsh
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly interested in
building the mvscript community.

They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for a
forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and the
domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using Mivascript.org.
Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each and
every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations is
there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not use
their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that you've
been given trouble before.

Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with mivascript.org.
See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is</A>
Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, Delphi,
and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for their
domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for them
to do so.

I see your point though.

And I'm still working on that million ;-)

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your 1000000...
:-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark unless
parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) or
completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not easy.
The only protection I could find was parody...

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


Chuck,

The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is not
commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard time
telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability of
that happening as 1/1000000.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

While you were sleeping: <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - Driftwood'"
<[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark is a
trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a violation,
but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to be
kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
(reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
trademark suit against me.

You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the legal
fees =) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on it).

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
They are now using it.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to Miva
Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" and
"mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to use
them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting company
nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one Miva
employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name that
way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had known
me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and abruptly
by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you use
the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. Ahem.

So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their name
in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will permit
some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was being
told "you do not understand the world of business". A real down-the-nose
sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
than half the number of years that I have.

Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But if
you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely be
seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin had
a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they darn
well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
their products.

Go figure...

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services



At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
>Hello everybody...
>
> I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript community
web
>site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in my
>spare time I developed the web-site.
> I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
>
> First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
money
>with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because there
>were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main problem
>was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to make
it
>all alone.
>
> The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
>developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
>indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can fill
>an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish his
>photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
>developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
>mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
>web-sites he made.
> Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
>developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody can
>use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
>developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
>tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) so
>every developer can add tutorials.
> There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish open
>source projects online. I think there are some developers that have already
>some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
>publish and promote them.
> I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. It
>could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
>appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea was to
>let developers "blog" every function with examples.
> We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by e-mail
>(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
want
>to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
>
> The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but that's
>just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides projects
>ppl and coders)
>
> So I really need help to the following points:
>
> 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this site.
> 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I already
>sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. but
>no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once again
>is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
>really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
>appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do you
>think?
> 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would the
>best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are some
>developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think they
>can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already integrated
>htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
>create tutorials)
> 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to copy
>sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
>about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
> 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
> 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
>
> There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. But
I'll
>be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
want
>to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
>
> PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
system...
>so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other ideas
>just let me know..
>
>
> Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for that.
>
> Best regards,
> Claudiu Bischoff
>
>

Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



Pardon Bill, we were talking about trademarks and how that would affect
Claudiu's mvscript project. Does the topic does not interest you, even
though you posted a previous message regarding it?

I think everyone is aware of the posting guidelines - I've been on this =
list
for years.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was =
Mivascript
community

Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML =
formatting),
and must contain at least one of the following:

- A usage question, or
- A response to a usage question, or
- An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
- A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Bill Gilligan
Gilligan On-Line
www.gilliganonline.com
570-723-4266

Visit www.MvCentral.com
For Everything Miva

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Ben Walsh
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly =
interested in
building the mvscript community.

They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for =
a
forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and =
the
domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using =
Mivascript.org.
Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each =
and
every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations =
is
there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not =
use
their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that =
you've
been given trouble before.

Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with =
mivascript.org.
See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =</A>
as is
Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, =
Delphi,
and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for =
their
domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for =
them
to do so.

I see your point though.

And I'm still working on that million ;-)

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your =
1000000...
:-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark =
unless
parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) =
or
completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not =
easy.
The only protection I could find was parody...

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


Chuck,

The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is =
not
commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard =
time
telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability =
of
that happening as 1/1000000.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

While you were sleeping: =
<A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - =
Driftwood'"
<[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark =
is a
trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a =
violation,
but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to =
be
kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
(reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
trademark suit against me.

You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the =
legal
fees =3D) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on =
it).

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
They are now using it.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to =
Miva
Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" =
and
"mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to =
use
them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting =
company
nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one =
Miva
employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name =
that
way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had =
known
me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and =
abruptly
by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you =
use
the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. =
Ahem.

So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their =
name
in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will =
permit
some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was =
being
told "you do not understand the world of business". A real =
down-the-nose
sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
than half the number of years that I have.

Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But =
if
you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely =
be
seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin =
had
a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they =
darn
well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
their products.

Go figure...

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services



At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
>Hello everybody...
>
> I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript =
community
web
>site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in =
my
>spare time I developed the web-site.
> I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
>
> First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
money
>with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because =
there
>were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main =
problem
>was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to =
make
it
>all alone.
>
> The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
>developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
>indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can =
fill
>an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish =
his
>photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
>developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
>mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
>web-sites he made.
> Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
>developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody =
can
>use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
>developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
>tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) =
so
>every developer can add tutorials.
> There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish =
open
>source projects online. I think there are some developers that have =
already
>some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
>publish and promote them.
> I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. =
It
>could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
>appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea =
was to
>let developers "blog" every function with examples.
> We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by =
e-mail
>(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
want
>to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
>
> The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but =
that's
>just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides =
projects
>ppl and coders)
>
> So I really need help to the following points:
>
> 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this =
site.
> 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I =
already
>sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. =
but
>no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once =
again
>is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
>really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
>appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do =
you
>think?
> 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would =
the
>best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are =
some
>developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think =
they
>can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already =
integrated
>htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
>create tutorials)
> 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to =
copy
>sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
>about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
> 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
> 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
>
> There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. =
But
I'll
>be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
want
>to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
>
> PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
system...
>so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other =
ideas
>just let me know..
>
>
> Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for =
that.
>
> Best regards,
> Claudiu Bischoff
>
>

Forum Guidelines - was RE: Trademarks - was Mivascript community



Each posting to the list should be in plain ASCII text (No HTML formatting),
and must contain at least one of the following:

- A usage question, or
- A response to a usage question, or
- An announcement of a resource for the Miva community, or
- A call for Miva consulting/development/training services.

======================
Bill Gilligan
Gilligan On-Line
www.gilliganonline.com
570-723-4266

Visit www.MvCentral.com
For Everything Miva

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Ben Walsh
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:57 PM
To: 'Chuck Lasker'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly interested in
building the mvscript community.

They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for a
forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and the
domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using Mivascript.org.
Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each and
every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations is
there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not use
their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that you've
been given trouble before.

Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with mivascript.org.
See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is</A>
Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, Delphi,
and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for their
domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for them
to do so.

I see your point though.

And I'm still working on that million ;-)

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your 1000000...
:-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark unless
parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) or
completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not easy.
The only protection I could find was parody...

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


Chuck,

The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is not
commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard time
telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability of
that happening as 1/1000000.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

While you were sleeping: <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - Driftwood'"
<[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark is a
trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a violation,
but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to be
kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
(reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
trademark suit against me.

You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the legal
fees =) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on it).

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
They are now using it.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to Miva
Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" and
"mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to use
them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting company
nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one Miva
employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name that
way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had known
me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and abruptly
by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you use
the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. Ahem.

So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their name
in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will permit
some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was being
told "you do not understand the world of business". A real down-the-nose
sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
than half the number of years that I have.

Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But if
you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely be
seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin had
a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they darn
well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
their products.

Go figure...

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services



At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
>Hello everybody...
>
> I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript community
web
>site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in my
>spare time I developed the web-site.
> I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
>
> First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
money
>with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because there
>were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main problem
>was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to make
it
>all alone.
>
> The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
>developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
>indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can fill
>an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish his
>photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
>developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
>mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
>web-sites he made.
> Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
>developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody can
>use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
>developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
>tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) so
>every developer can add tutorials.
> There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish open
>source projects online. I think there are some developers that have already
>some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
>publish and promote them.
> I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. It
>could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
>appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea was to
>let developers "blog" every function with examples.
> We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by e-mail
>(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
want
>to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
>
> The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but that's
>just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides projects
>ppl and coders)
>
> So I really need help to the following points:
>
> 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this site.
> 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I already
>sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. but
>no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once again
>is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
>really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
>appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do you
>think?
> 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would the
>best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are some
>developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think they
>can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already integrated
>htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
>create tutorials)
> 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to copy
>sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
>about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
> 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
> 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
>
> There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. But
I'll
>be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
want
>to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
>
> PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
system...
>so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other ideas
>just let me know..
>
>
> Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for that.
>
> Best regards,
> Claudiu Bischoff
>
>

Trademarks - was Mivascript community



Agreed Chuck. And I would have to say that Miva is not exactly =
interested in
building the mvscript community.

They definitely couldn't get any damages out of you if they sued you for =
a
forum/support group. The most they could get is the site shutdown and =
the
domain name. Personally I wouldn't have any problem using =
Mivascript.org.=20
Anybody have an example where that theory is wrong?

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Lasker [mailto:[email protected]]=20
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:02 PM
To: Ben Walsh; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community

Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each =
and
every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations =
is
there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not =
use
their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

Chuck
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that =
you've
been given trouble before.

Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with =
mivascript.org.
See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =</A>
as is
Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, =
Delphi,
and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for =
their
domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for =
them
to do so.

I see your point though.

And I'm still working on that million ;-)

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your =
1000000...
:-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark =
unless
parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) =
or
completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not =
easy.
The only protection I could find was parody...

Chuck

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


Chuck,

The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is =
not
commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard =
time
telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability =
of
that happening as 1/1000000.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

While you were sleeping: =
<A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

Chuck

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - =
Driftwood'"
<[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark =
is a
trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a =
violation,
but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to =
be
kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
(reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
trademark suit against me.

You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the =
legal
fees =3D) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on =
it).

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
They are now using it.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to =
Miva
Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" =
and
"mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to =
use
them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting =
company
nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one =
Miva
employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name =
that
way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had =
known
me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and =
abruptly
by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you =
use
the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. =
Ahem.

So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their =
name
in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will =
permit
some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was =
being
told "you do not understand the world of business". A real =
down-the-nose
sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
than half the number of years that I have.

Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But =
if
you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely =
be
seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin =
had
a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they =
darn
well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
their products.

Go figure...

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services



At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
>Hello everybody...
>
> I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript =
community
web
>site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in =
my
>spare time I developed the web-site.
> I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
>
> First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
money
>with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because =
there
>were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main =
problem
>was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to =
make
it
>all alone.
>
> The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
>developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
>indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can =
fill
>an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish =
his
>photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
>developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
>mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
>web-sites he made.
> Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
>developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody =
can
>use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
>developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
>tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) =
so
>every developer can add tutorials.
> There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish =
open
>source projects online. I think there are some developers that have =
already
>some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
>publish and promote them.
> I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. =
It
>could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
>appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea =
was to
>let developers "blog" every function with examples.
> We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by =
e-mail
>(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
want
>to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
>
> The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but =
that's
>just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides =
projects
>ppl and coders)
>
> So I really need help to the following points:
>
> 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this =
site.
> 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I =
already
>sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. =
but
>no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once =
again
>is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
>really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
>appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do =
you
>think?
> 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would =
the
>best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are =
some
>developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think =
they
>can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already =
integrated
>htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
>create tutorials)
> 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to =
copy
>sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
>about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
> 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
> 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
>
> There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. =
But
I'll
>be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
want
>to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
>
> PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
system...
>so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other =
ideas
>just let me know..
>
>
> Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for =
that.
>
> Best regards,
> Claudiu Bischoff
>
>

Trademarks - was Mivascript community



Yeah. I think it's such a gray area, and it's being changed with each and
every court case. The one thing I learned for sure in my investigations is
there is no cut and dry. Personally, if a company told me I could not use
their name in a support forum, I'd walk away anyway (Miva). To heck with
them. Small mindedness and success never go together. Miva will never go
beyond the mediocrity it is at now until is opens up and thinks bigger.

Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Trademarks - was Mivascript community


I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that you've
been given trouble before.

Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with mivascript.org.
See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft as is</A>
Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, Delphi,
and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for their
domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for them
to do so.

I see your point though.

And I'm still working on that million ;-)

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your 1000000...
:-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark unless
parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) or
completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not easy.
The only protection I could find was parody...

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


Chuck,

The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is not
commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard time
telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability of
that happening as 1/1000000.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

While you were sleeping: <A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

Chuck

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - Driftwood'"
<[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark is a
trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a violation,
but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to be
kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
(reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
trademark suit against me.

You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the legal
fees =) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on it).

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
They are now using it.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to Miva
Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" and
"mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to use
them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting company
nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one Miva
employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name that
way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had known
me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and abruptly
by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you use
the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. Ahem.

So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their name
in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will permit
some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was being
told "you do not understand the world of business". A real down-the-nose
sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
than half the number of years that I have.

Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But if
you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely be
seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin had
a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they darn
well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
their products.

Go figure...

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services



At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
>Hello everybody...
>
> I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript community
web
>site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in my
>spare time I developed the web-site.
> I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
>
> First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
money
>with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because there
>were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main problem
>was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to make
it
>all alone.
>
> The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
>developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
>indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can fill
>an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish his
>photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
>developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
>mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
>web-sites he made.
> Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
>developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody can
>use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
>developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
>tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) so
>every developer can add tutorials.
> There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish open
>source projects online. I think there are some developers that have already
>some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
>publish and promote them.
> I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. It
>could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
>appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea was to
>let developers "blog" every function with examples.
> We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by e-mail
>(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
want
>to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
>
> The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but that's
>just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides projects
>ppl and coders)
>
> So I really need help to the following points:
>
> 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this site.
> 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I already
>sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. but
>no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once again
>is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
>really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
>appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do you
>think?
> 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would the
>best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are some
>developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think they
>can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already integrated
>htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
>create tutorials)
> 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to copy
>sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
>about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
> 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
> 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
>
> There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. But
I'll
>be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
want
>to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
>
> PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
system...
>so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other ideas
>just let me know..
>
>
> Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for that.
>
> Best regards,
> Claudiu Bischoff
>
>

Trademarks - was Mivascript community



I can see why you'd be hesitant Chuck, especially considering that =
you've
been given trouble before.

Lots of examples exist for what Claudiu is trying to do with =
mivascript.org.
See: <A HREF ="http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =">http://www.windowsforum.org/ (Windows is a trademark of Microsoft =</A>
as is
Microsoft for that matter). You'll also see that with Visual Basic, =
Delphi,
and many other programming languages. I've never seen a coder sued for =
their
domain name with much success. Obviously it's also counterintuitive for =
them
to do so.

I see your point though.

And I'm still working on that million ;-)

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

Hey, I ain't no lawyer. But I'll give you a dollar against your =
1000000...
:-) I still disagree. Miva Corp has full control of their trademark =
unless
parody (which is only an exception because of free speech protections) =
or
completely unrelated use (Miva orchids). But a site about Miva Corp's
Mivascript is certainly related, and most likely not parody.

I successfully fended off an intimidation attempt from Discovery
Communications over my www.tradingtrailers.com parody, but it was not =
easy.
The only protection I could find was parody...

Chuck

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Chuck Lasker'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


Chuck,

The article you referenced is nothing new. However, the use of
Mivascript.org does not infringe on Miva's trademark so long as it is =
not
commercial or competing with them. They would have an extremely hard =
time
telling a judge that you hurt their business. I'd give the probability =
of
that happening as 1/1000000.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Chuck Lasker
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community

While you were sleeping: =
<A HREF ="http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/">http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/pcactive0206/</A>

Chuck

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Ben Walsh" <[email protected]>
To: "'Bill Gilligan'" <[email protected]>; "'Jonathan - =
Driftwood'"
<[email protected]>; "'Claudiu Bischoff'" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community


I'm not aware that owning a domain name containing another's trademark =
is a
trademark infringement. Did something happen while I was sleeping?

Making money off someone else's trademark obviously constitutes a =
violation,
but a forum or discussion site? You've got to be kidding. That's got to =
be
kosher. For instance if I opened up a site called walmartreview.biz
(reviewing Walmart products) they wouldn't have a prayer of winning a
trademark suit against me.

You're fine using Mivascript.org Claudiu. If you get sued I'll pay the =
legal
fees =3D) (as long as you don't compete with them or sell anything on =
it).

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Bill Gilligan
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:54 PM
To: Jonathan - Driftwood; Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Mivascript community

I used to own www.mivacentral.com (now www.mvcentral.com)
I released it at the request of Joe Austin.
They are now using it.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Jonathan - Driftwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
To: Claudiu Bischoff; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [meu] Mivascript community


Might want to use real caution with that domain name.

I owned a selection of names which were aimed at Miva-based issues. I
registered them many, many years ago when they first switched from
HTMLScript to Miva Script. I also sent an email to the then CEO, Joe
Austin and told him I had the names and would be happy to give them to =
Miva
Corp if the issue ever arose. As I explained to Joe, I registered the
names more to help and/or protect Miva Corp than any intention of using
them actively. One's like "mivamerchant.net" and "miva-merchant.org" =
and
"mivatreats.com" I did not want to see used for profit -- I wanted to =
use
them for community building. At the time I did NOT own a hosting =
company
nor was making any portion of my income from Miva Corp products.

The names were NEVER used - and half of them simply directed traffic to
miva.com! The whole point was not to use them to make money. Like my
'Miva Masochists Guild' site. Hell, when I first opened the MMG one =
Miva
employee wrote to say they were going to sue me for using their name =
that
way. It was quashed when Joe and other Miva employees went and simply
looked at the damn thing and found it humorous; and because they had =
known
me for years and knew well my intentions and perspectives.

Then last year about this time I was contacted rather rudely and =
abruptly
by Miva Corp and they demanded I immediately fork over the name(s)
immediately because they said I was violating their trademark.

Why they attacked me and not any of the other people using Miva-oriented
domain names to actually make money - I do not know. None of my domain
names was EVER used to generate revenue in any fashion. I guess if you =
use
the domain name to make money Miva Corp lets it ride or something. =
Ahem.

So Miva Corp's response to using domain names with any form of their =
name
in the domain name is inconsistent at best. Apparently they will =
permit
some people to use these names to make money - but very tangibly not for
community building efforts. As I reflected to a Miva Corp officer last
year, it was unfortunate that they decided to single-out 'community'
efforts for negative action. The base reaction I got felt like I was =
being
told "you do not understand the world of business". A real =
down-the-nose
sort of reaction; from someone who has worked in the Miva world far less
than half the number of years that I have.

Your intentions are noble and - to me - a highly valuable resource. But =
if
you use it for non-profit education or community building it will likely =
be
seen by them as a threat for some reason. The previous CEO Joe Austin =
had
a very realistic and honorable perspective on this matter. But it ain't
Joe's company any more and the new owners have the right to do as they =
darn
well please, and do not owe any explanation to the users or vendors or
their products.

Go figure...

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services



At 11:25 PM 1/11/2005, Claudiu Bischoff wrote:
>Hello everybody...
>
> I have to tell all that I'm in a final phase of a mivascript =
community
web
>site project. It's an old dream that I had about that community so in =
my
>spare time I developed the web-site.
> I'll describe the site here.. because I really need your opinion
>
> First of all is a non-commercial website.. so I don't expect to make
money
>with it. It's all for the community and I built it all alone because =
there
>were some failed attempts to build such a project .. and the main =
problem
>was the time of the team, etc.. So I think that was a good choice to =
make
it
>all alone.
>
> The concept was to make a public database with all the mivascript
>developers. Every developer can create freely an account (where he must
>indicate his mivascripting level.. and some other information). He can =
fill
>an online CV (only professional information of course) and even publish =
his
>photo. There is a blog feature on every developer account (that the
>developer can administrate too). The developer can also present his
>mivascript work (there is a special menu to do that) and link to the
>web-sites he made.
> Another feature is the Resources side of the site. My idea was to let
>developers publish their scripts (compiled or uncompiled) so everybody =
can
>use it. There is a special menu for add/modify/delete scripts in the
>developer account. There is a blog also for every published script. A
>tutorial section is on the way (but here I need some help from you..) =
so
>every developer can add tutorials.
> There is an Online Projects feature also. The idea was to publish =
open
>source projects online. I think there are some developers that have =
already
>some open source mivascript projects and this could be a good place to
>publish and promote them.
> I want to make a mivascript functions database with a search engine. =
It
>could be a good idea to build it in the same way as php.net. What I
>appreciate out there are the examples for every function. So my idea =
was to
>let developers "blog" every function with examples.
> We have also a forum.. but I'm searching a way to make it work by =
e-mail
>(like this one).. perhaps someone have already this functionality.. and
want
>to participate with it.. Else I'll be forced to make it all alone :)
>
> The next step will be to make a small "rent a coder" platform but =
that's
>just an idea for the moment.(of course for free for the both sides =
projects
>ppl and coders)
>
> So I really need help to the following points:
>
> 1. Language. I'm not English.. so I need help "translating" this =
site.
> 2. Domain name. I have mivascript.org .. and I want to use it. I =
already
>sent some e-mails to the Miva Corporation to ask permission to use it.. =
but
>no answer. So I don't know if I have the right to use it or not (once =
again
>is for the mivascript community and it is not a commercial website). I
>really don't want to change the domain name because I think it is very
>appropriate for those who are searching mivascript resources... What do =
you
>think?
> 3. The tutorial side of the website. I would like to know which would =
the
>best way to make this module (back-office functionality). There are =
some
>developers on the list that already done some tutorials.. so I think =
they
>can give examples about the easiest way to make it (I already =
integrated
>htmlarea editor to publish text.. so I think this can make it easier to
>create tutorials)
> 4. The Online Projects side. I don't think that is a good idea to =
copy
>sourceforge.net because it's too complicated. If someone can give ideas
>about how would be better to make it.. would be great.
> 5. Do you think it's a non-sense to make all those efforts ?
> 6. Do you believe that will be a dead-born project ? :)
>
> There is no preview online for the moment because is not finished. =
But
I'll
>be able to show something very soon. That why I wanted your opinion.. I
want
>to give everybody the possibility to participate with ideas.
>
> PS: All the website is developed in mivascript and it's a modular
system...
>so new functionality are very easy to implement. If you have other =
ideas
>just let me know..
>
>
> Thank you all for your efforts understanding my English.. Sorry for =
that.
>
> Best regards,
> Claudiu Bischoff
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
> Behalf Of Ben Walsh
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:03 AM
> To: 'Bill Gilligan'; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [meu] Forum Guidelines - was RE: [meu] Trademarks - was
> Mivascript community

> I don't see anything wrong with using a domain with 'miva' in it for
> community building, but that's my viewpoint. Whether it is right
> to discuss
> trademarks on-list and how that would affect a Miva project, that's your
> personal view.
> Miva is protecting their trademark? How is someone hurting it by
> creating a
> community/coding site? Their policies seem a bit detrimental. Go for it if
> they're shutting down somebody hurting their business.

Disregarding Miva's stance on this for a moment, the reason a company should
be very deligent in defending the use of thier trademarks in web sites is
simply a matter of general protection.

If I let you use PhosphorMedia in a site that is benifical to us, then it
becomes harder to defend the rights to it when someone wants to use that
domain in a competitive site.

-Bruce Golub
PHOSPHOR Media
www.phosphormedia.com
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