OT: Blacklisting workaround?

OK, I have a problem that I am sure lots of you are having.

I have an opt-in mailing list that, periodically, I send newsletters to.

Lately, most of the letters to e-mails hosted by Hotmail and Yahoo are going
into a black hole: neither bouncing or going through. I am pretty sure that
this has to do with all the spam that has been polluting the ether and these
guys are being proactive in filtering anything that even resembles it (not
in my case, either simple HTML newsletters OR customer order confirmation
e-mails).

Does anyone know of any workaround? I am sending the newsletter e-mails via
Cybrhost's Communicate Pro mail list tool.

While I am on the topic, does anyone know of a better tool that allows me to
integrate with PHP db, or at the very least export addresses for the
bounced/unsubscribed e-mails?

Thanks a bunch,
Alex

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



A lot of ISPs lately, and I think this may also include Hotmail & Yahoo,
look at how many messages you send to their systems per hour or per minute
or per day. If the number of messages is high, according to their rules,
they flag your domain as potential spammer and block all incoming traffic
(ever wonder why you hardly ever receive spam in your Yahoo mailbox these
days?). That's why it's nice to use mailing systems that can throttle
messages down and send only a handful of them per minute or a smaller number
every hour. Let it run in the background at its pace - who cares if it
takes 12 or 24 hours to complete at very low priority - it's better for your
messages to reach your recipients than try to send several thousand messages
all at once and have them all end up in /dev/null instead.

<rant>
AOL users - will they ever learn to read and distringuish between the DELETE
and MARK AS SPAM buttons? 99.99% of all spam that we get reported comes
from AOL postmaster, and 100% of these emails turn out to be Merchant order
confirmations (!!!), tracking numbers from FedEx or UPS (!!!), and 100%
opt-in mailing lists we know our clients are using. Apparently it's more
convenient to hit THIS IS SPAM to delete email from the inbox, than moving
the mouse couple inches and hitting DELETE instead. I can appreciate the
convenience of the spam reporting button but most AOL users use it to delete
email instead, without understanding that this generates spam complaints to
the postmaster responsible for the IP block the message came from. :-( I
think "AOL for Dummies" should be a mandatory book included with every
account and there should be a pop-quiz before you gain access to email and
anything that leaves the boundries of AOL system itself.
</rant>

Remik


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Brodsky" <[email protected]>
To: "'Miva Users'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 4:25 PM
Subject: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?


> OK, I have a problem that I am sure lots of you are having.
>
> I have an opt-in mailing list that, periodically, I send newsletters to.
>
> Lately, most of the letters to e-mails hosted by Hotmail and Yahoo are
> going
> into a black hole: neither bouncing or going through. I am pretty sure
> that
> this has to do with all the spam that has been polluting the ether and
> these
> guys are being proactive in filtering anything that even resembles it (not
> in my case, either simple HTML newsletters OR customer order confirmation
> e-mails).
>
> Does anyone know of any workaround? I am sending the newsletter e-mails
> via
> Cybrhost's Communicate Pro mail list tool.
>
> While I am on the topic, does anyone know of a better tool that allows me
> to
> integrate with PHP db, or at the very least export addresses for the
> bounced/unsubscribed e-mails?
>
> Thanks a bunch,
> Alex
>
>
>

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



Hey Remik,

Thank you for the e-mail. Do you know of any good mailing programs that will
send the e-mails handful at a time? The only one I remember from last year
was Subscribe2 but am not sure how well it will do it.

In the worst case, I can write a PHP program that will do it. However, I
would rather not deal with the bounced e-mails and opt-outs...

Thanks,
Alex

P.S. I agree about AOL users. :(

-----Original Message-----
From: Remik - dotCOM designers [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:07 PM
To: Alex Brodsky; 'Miva Users'
Subject: Re: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?

A lot of ISPs lately, and I think this may also include Hotmail & Yahoo,
look at how many messages you send to their systems per hour or per minute
or per day. If the number of messages is high, according to their rules,
they flag your domain as potential spammer and block all incoming traffic
(ever wonder why you hardly ever receive spam in your Yahoo mailbox these
days?). That's why it's nice to use mailing systems that can throttle
messages down and send only a handful of them per minute or a smaller number

every hour. Let it run in the background at its pace - who cares if it
takes 12 or 24 hours to complete at very low priority - it's better for your

messages to reach your recipients than try to send several thousand messages

all at once and have them all end up in /dev/null instead.

<rant>
AOL users - will they ever learn to read and distringuish between the DELETE

and MARK AS SPAM buttons? 99.99% of all spam that we get reported comes
from AOL postmaster, and 100% of these emails turn out to be Merchant order
confirmations (!!!), tracking numbers from FedEx or UPS (!!!), and 100%
opt-in mailing lists we know our clients are using. Apparently it's more
convenient to hit THIS IS SPAM to delete email from the inbox, than moving
the mouse couple inches and hitting DELETE instead. I can appreciate the
convenience of the spam reporting button but most AOL users use it to delete

email instead, without understanding that this generates spam complaints to
the postmaster responsible for the IP block the message came from. :-( I
think "AOL for Dummies" should be a mandatory book included with every
account and there should be a pop-quiz before you gain access to email and
anything that leaves the boundries of AOL system itself.
</rant>

Remik


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Brodsky" <[email protected]>
To: "'Miva Users'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 4:25 PM
Subject: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?


> OK, I have a problem that I am sure lots of you are having.
>
> I have an opt-in mailing list that, periodically, I send newsletters to.
>
> Lately, most of the letters to e-mails hosted by Hotmail and Yahoo are
> going
> into a black hole: neither bouncing or going through. I am pretty sure
> that
> this has to do with all the spam that has been polluting the ether and
> these
> guys are being proactive in filtering anything that even resembles it (not
> in my case, either simple HTML newsletters OR customer order confirmation
> e-mails).
>
> Does anyone know of any workaround? I am sending the newsletter e-mails
> via
> Cybrhost's Communicate Pro mail list tool.
>
> While I am on the topic, does anyone know of a better tool that allows me
> to
> integrate with PHP db, or at the very least export addresses for the
> bounced/unsubscribed e-mails?
>
> Thanks a bunch,
> Alex
>
>
>

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



I don't know of any that integrate with Merchant that give you this sort of
option, and the ones I do know of may not necessarily handle the bouncebacks
automatically. It's always catch 22 - you find a program that does 95% of
all that you want, and there's always that one little feature you wish it
had that is missing... Then there are programs that will handle the
bouncebacks, but they are absolutely horrible in every other regard or can't
handle something as simple as double opt-in. One of these days when things
slow down a bit here (ha!), I'll ask one of our guys who loves to code PHP
to write a completely customized mailing list system that will handle bounce
backs, email throttling, double opt-in/opt-out verifications, stats,
per-user customizable mailings, email groups, scheduling, and pretty much
combine all features from several different apps all into one. I'm
surprised there are no decent mailing list systems out there already that
handle all of this - at least I've never seen one and I spent days, even
recently, looking for something more advanced... It looks like even large
companies out there typically have something that was developed in-house,
precisely because of these reasons.

Remik


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Brodsky" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?


> Hey Remik,
>
> Thank you for the e-mail. Do you know of any good mailing programs that
> will
> send the e-mails handful at a time? The only one I remember from last year
> was Subscribe2 but am not sure how well it will do it.
>
> In the worst case, I can write a PHP program that will do it. However, I
> would rather not deal with the bounced e-mails and opt-outs...
>
> Thanks,
> Alex
>
> P.S. I agree about AOL users. :(

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



The only one I know that even comes close is from Octeth. However, I am not
sure it can do scheduling/thin piping the messages...

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Remik - dotCOM designers
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:27 PM
To: 'Miva Users'
Subject: Re: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?

I don't know of any that integrate with Merchant that give you this sort of
option, and the ones I do know of may not necessarily handle the bouncebacks

automatically. It's always catch 22 - you find a program that does 95% of
all that you want, and there's always that one little feature you wish it
had that is missing... Then there are programs that will handle the
bouncebacks, but they are absolutely horrible in every other regard or can't

handle something as simple as double opt-in. One of these days when things
slow down a bit here (ha!), I'll ask one of our guys who loves to code PHP
to write a completely customized mailing list system that will handle bounce

backs, email throttling, double opt-in/opt-out verifications, stats,
per-user customizable mailings, email groups, scheduling, and pretty much
combine all features from several different apps all into one. I'm
surprised there are no decent mailing list systems out there already that
handle all of this - at least I've never seen one and I spent days, even
recently, looking for something more advanced... It looks like even large
companies out there typically have something that was developed in-house,
precisely because of these reasons.

Remik


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Brodsky" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?


> Hey Remik,
>
> Thank you for the e-mail. Do you know of any good mailing programs that
> will
> send the e-mails handful at a time? The only one I remember from last year
> was Subscribe2 but am not sure how well it will do it.
>
> In the worst case, I can write a PHP program that will do it. However, I
> would rather not deal with the bounced e-mails and opt-outs...
>
> Thanks,
> Alex
>
> P.S. I agree about AOL users. :(

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



If you are referring to oemPro, it runs on your PC, not on your mail server.
This would make it impractical for mass mailings, really, and your own ISP
would most likely be the one blocking everything if you had this kind of
volume of email originating from your PC.

I can send you off-list a few that I've looked at that were pretty decent,
if you are interested.

Remik


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Brodsky" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?


> The only one I know that even comes close is from Octeth. However,
> I am not sure it can do scheduling/thin piping the messages...

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



There is a product that pretty much does what you wrote below-

My ScotMail script handles most of what you mentioned below (bounce
backs, throttling, verifications, simple stats, groups, cron scheduling,
etc). Slowing it down is easy- set a pause (in seconds) between new
outgoing screens.

Scot
<A HREF ="http://www.scotsscripts.com">http://www.scotsscripts.com</A>


Remik - dotCOM designers wrote:
> I don't know of any that integrate with Merchant that give you this sort
> of option, and the ones I do know of may not necessarily handle the
> bouncebacks automatically. It's always catch 22 - you find a program
> that does 95% of all that you want, and there's always that one little
> feature you wish it had that is missing... Then there are programs that
> will handle the bouncebacks, but they are absolutely horrible in every
> other regard or can't handle something as simple as double opt-in. One
> of these days when things slow down a bit here (ha!), I'll ask one of
> our guys who loves to code PHP to write a completely customized mailing
> list system that will handle bounce backs, email throttling, double
> opt-in/opt-out verifications, stats, per-user customizable mailings,
> email groups, scheduling, and pretty much combine all features from
> several different apps all into one. I'm surprised there are no decent
> mailing list systems out there already that handle all of this - at
> least I've never seen one and I spent days, even recently, looking for
> something more advanced... It looks like even large companies out there
> typically have something that was developed in-house, precisely because
> of these reasons.
>
> Remik
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Brodsky" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:17 PM
> Subject: RE: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?
>
>
>> Hey Remik,
>>
>> Thank you for the e-mail. Do you know of any good mailing programs
>> that will
>> send the e-mails handful at a time? The only one I remember from last
>> year
>> was Subscribe2 but am not sure how well it will do it.
>>
>> In the worst case, I can write a PHP program that will do it. However, I
>> would rather not deal with the bounced e-mails and opt-outs...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Alex
>>
>> P.S. I agree about AOL users. :(
>
>
>
>

If running compiled Merchant 4.23 can one safely delete all .mv files?



Is there any reason why one would want or need to keep all the .mv
(uncompiled) files on the server if you are running compiled Merchant 4.23?
Can the .mv files be safely deleted?

Also, the stub files in the Miva Script directory are needed, but are
the directories of the old versions like the 4.12 and 4.20 needed?

Thank you,

Mike

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



Hi Scot,

Can it be integrated with a MySql DB? All my (7000 and counting) recipients
are stored there?

Thanks,
Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Scot Ranney
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:45 PM
To: 'Miva Users'
Subject: Re: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?

There is a product that pretty much does what you wrote below-

My ScotMail script handles most of what you mentioned below (bounce
backs, throttling, verifications, simple stats, groups, cron scheduling,
etc). Slowing it down is easy- set a pause (in seconds) between new
outgoing screens.

Scot
<A HREF ="http://www.scotsscripts.com">http://www.scotsscripts.com</A>


Remik - dotCOM designers wrote:
> I don't know of any that integrate with Merchant that give you this sort
> of option, and the ones I do know of may not necessarily handle the
> bouncebacks automatically. It's always catch 22 - you find a program
> that does 95% of all that you want, and there's always that one little
> feature you wish it had that is missing... Then there are programs that
> will handle the bouncebacks, but they are absolutely horrible in every
> other regard or can't handle something as simple as double opt-in. One
> of these days when things slow down a bit here (ha!), I'll ask one of
> our guys who loves to code PHP to write a completely customized mailing
> list system that will handle bounce backs, email throttling, double
> opt-in/opt-out verifications, stats, per-user customizable mailings,
> email groups, scheduling, and pretty much combine all features from
> several different apps all into one. I'm surprised there are no decent
> mailing list systems out there already that handle all of this - at
> least I've never seen one and I spent days, even recently, looking for
> something more advanced... It looks like even large companies out there
> typically have something that was developed in-house, precisely because
> of these reasons.
>
> Remik
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Brodsky" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:17 PM
> Subject: RE: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?
>
>
>> Hey Remik,
>>
>> Thank you for the e-mail. Do you know of any good mailing programs
>> that will
>> send the e-mails handful at a time? The only one I remember from last
>> year
>> was Subscribe2 but am not sure how well it will do it.
>>
>> In the worst case, I can write a PHP program that will do it. However, I
>> would rather not deal with the bounced e-mails and opt-outs...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Alex
>>
>> P.S. I agree about AOL users. :(
>
>
>
>

If running compiled Merchant 4.23 can one safely delete all .mv files?



You shouldn't need the .mv files if you're running compiled. Older version
directories should not be needed either. To be on the safe side, rename each
directory that you consider deleting to something else and leave it for a
month before deleting, to see if any problems occur.

For example, you might rename your 4.12 directory under /Merchant2 to
something like "4.12-delete-on-Nov15". That way, you get a chance to see if
you really need it. If you want to be a bit safer, you can back up the
contents of the directory prior to deleting.

BTW, the stub files are replaced by the Merchant setup each time you upgrade
versions.

HTH
Tom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
> Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 7:50 PM
> To: 'Miva Users'
> Subject: [meu] If running compiled Merchant 4.23 can one safely delete
> all .mv files?
>
>
> Is there any reason why one would want or need to keep all the .mv
> (uncompiled) files on the server if you are running compiled Merchant 4.23?
> Can the .mv files be safely deleted?
>
> Also, the stub files in the Miva Script directory are needed, but are
> the directories of the old versions like the 4.12 and 4.20 needed?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mike
>
>

If running compiled Merchant 4.23 can one safely delete



Thank you Tom! :)

Mike


Tom wrote:
> You shouldn't need the .mv files if you're running compiled. Older version
> directories should not be needed either. To be on the safe side, rename each
> directory that you consider deleting to something else and leave it for a
> month before deleting, to see if any problems occur.
>
> For example, you might rename your 4.12 directory under /Merchant2 to
> something like "4.12-delete-on-Nov15". That way, you get a chance to see if
> you really need it. If you want to be a bit safer, you can back up the
> contents of the directory prior to deleting.
>
> BTW, the stub files are replaced by the Merchant setup each time you upgrade
> versions.
>
> HTH
> Tom
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
>>Behalf Of Mike
>>Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 7:50 PM
>>To: 'Miva Users'
>>Subject: [meu] If running compiled Merchant 4.23 can one safely delete
>>all .mv files?
>>
>>
>>Is there any reason why one would want or need to keep all the .mv
>>(uncompiled) files on the server if you are running compiled Merchant 4.23?
>>Can the .mv files be safely deleted?
>>
>>Also, the stub files in the Miva Script directory are needed, but are
>>the directories of the old versions like the 4.12 and 4.20 needed?
>>
>>Thank you,
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



FWIW, we mail 50k plus lists 2-3 times a week and get zero refused. It has
more to do with the sending server's config and the way the list ware sends
the email. I've seen the list servers go through almost 200k of messages
in a week without a refusal.

Some list servers have two big problems; there is no valid MX record for
the sending domain which matches the name of the sending server, and/or the
server duplicates one message to all list members instead of generating an
individual message to each. If the receiving server looks up the 'From'
address and finds no MX record for that domain which matches the sending
server, there can be a problem. And when it does not generate individual
messages then it simply spews thousands of messages -- each with the same
message ID.

Because of the overhead in the DNS lookups I sincerely doubt the massive
providers are doing individual lookups. Odds are it takes the first 5-10
and then 'sees' that the message ID is exactly the same; so it bans
them. Or after XX messages from the same address the server does the DNS
lookup and then fails the following attempts.

Also common from trying to mail 'dirty' lists. The receiving server counts
the number of failed delivery attempts (dead accounts, closed accounts,
etc.) from the same address and then bans the sender. If the list server
cannot automatically remove those dead addresses the problem will get much
worse before it gets better. We host 'clean' email lists that will have
less than 1-3 bounces out of a 55,000 piece mailing. In my experience if
you have a list which fails 5%-10% of the addresses then you have a 'dirty'
list, and it will snowball. One stupid-level test is search the list for
stuff like any "@home.com" addresses. If you find even one, it is a
worthless and filthy mailing list and is destined to be SpamCop food (@home
has been dead for 2-3 years). It should be re-started from scratch.

There are list servers that can feed from SQL. We use a Win-based email
server app called 'MDaemon' on dedicated list servers. List serving is a
poor second cousin the app, but one that works extremely well once you get
used to it and used to the lack of lists server-based features. MDaemon
can eat from SQL, but we prefer to use good old flat files because of the
backup and manipulation issues.

Just an opinion...

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services


At 06:25 PM 10/16/2004, Alex Brodsky wrote:
>OK, I have a problem that I am sure lots of you are having.
>
>I have an opt-in mailing list that, periodically, I send newsletters to.
>
>Lately, most of the letters to e-mails hosted by Hotmail and Yahoo are going
>into a black hole: neither bouncing or going through. I am pretty sure that
>this has to do with all the spam that has been polluting the ether and these
>guys are being proactive in filtering anything that even resembles it (not
>in my case, either simple HTML newsletters OR customer order confirmation
>e-mails).
>
>Does anyone know of any workaround? I am sending the newsletter e-mails via
>Cybrhost's Communicate Pro mail list tool.
>
>While I am on the topic, does anyone know of a better tool that allows me to
>integrate with PHP db, or at the very least export addresses for the
>bounced/unsubscribed e-mails?
>
>Thanks a bunch,
>Alex

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



Make sure you have an SPF record in your DNS. Hotmail, Yahoo, AOL and many
others no longer accept mail unles you have one.

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



Sorry, but that is not true. Yahoo and AOL dropped any support for SPF
maybe a couple of months ago. It was a doomed technology that was never
really anticipated to work by anyone; except Microsoft.

We tested it over 2-3 months and found not -one- legitimate inbound email
who's domain had proper SPF records; not even Hotmail addresses -- only
spammers supported SPF records. It was a total and complete waste of time.

Jonathan
Driftwood Network Services





At 01:59 PM 10/17/2004, Brian A. Chase wrote:
>Make sure you have an SPF record in your DNS. Hotmail, Yahoo, AOL and many
>others no longer accept mail unles you have one.
>

OT: Blacklisting workaround?



Hotmail started checking SPF records on 01 Oct 2004.

I think Yahoo and MSN are still doing the same, but have no evidence of
that.

Thanks,
Gary...

DOMINANT DESIGNS & Development Services Ltd.
<A HREF ="http://www.DominantDesigns.com/">http://www.DominantDesigns.com/</A>

ESP - Ecommerce Shopping Portal
<A HREF ="http://www.MivaRoo.com/">http://www.MivaRoo.com/</A>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan - Driftwood" <[email protected]>
To: "Brian A. Chase" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meu] OT: Blacklisting workaround?


> Sorry, but that is not true. Yahoo and AOL dropped any support for SPF
> maybe a couple of months ago. It was a doomed technology that was never
> really anticipated to work by anyone; except Microsoft.
>
> We tested it over 2-3 months and found not -one- legitimate inbound email
> who's domain had proper SPF records; not even Hotmail addresses -- only
> spammers supported SPF records. It was a total and complete waste of
time.
>
> Jonathan
> Driftwood Network Services
>
>
>
>
>
> At 01:59 PM 10/17/2004, Brian A. Chase wrote:
> >Make sure you have an SPF record in your DNS. Hotmail, Yahoo, AOL and
many
> >others no longer accept mail unles you have one.
> >