Announcement

#2 · 12-06-00, 09:54 AM

Site Design Philosophy

Hi Ed,
It depends on your server. If you have a high-end server that can =
handle it, go with all Miva. Otherwise use SSI includes for template =
work. You may want to check to see if you can a Miva =
file like . In most cases this =
will work, just in case you have an SSI page that needs a small portion =
of Miva in it.=20

I would not use index.mv as the file for every page. This can screw =
over your search engine rankings in several ways. Many engines will not =
index pages that have a question mark in them to separate a query. To =
boot, trying to map out your site with a site mapping utility usually =
will fail and feed you a report containing a single page. The only time =
I use one file that calls others like you are referring to, is when I =
KNOW I will not be putting the site into a search engine, AND I want an =
easy way to add a simple protection scheme to the whole program by =
including it at the top of the main file.=20

Another advantage to having one main file is the ability to have a =
global configuration at the top that every Miva file can use. For =
instance, I usually include a variable at the top for internal programs =
called PROGRAMLOCK and assign it to 0. If I ever need to update the =
program and want to bar people from modifying the database while under =
maintenance, I change the PROGRAMLOCK variable to something like 8 and =
the next page the users will see is simply a message that says "This =
program is undergoing maintenance and will be back up in 8 minutes." =
Once I'm done, I can change that one variable back to 0 and the whole =
program is functional again. That type of thing.

So overall, use a single main file for internal programs or pages that =
will not be indexed by a search engine, otherwise split them up.=20
As far as SSI/Miva templates go, use SSI if possible, SSI/Miva if you =
want some Miva in there, or just all Miva if your server can handle it. =

My two cents.

--Fuscus aka "Fake Jonathan"
SiteCreative.com

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 12/6/00 at 5:31 PM Ed H wrote:

>Hi Miva-Users,
>
>I am doing a redesign on a site and was wondering if I could get some =
input=20
>on design philosophies and prefered methods.
>
>Currently, the site has many files that are accessed individually in=20
>different directories with a combination of shtml and miva. What I =
mean is=20
>if somebody wants the help page the go to=20
>http://domain.com/subdirectory/help.shtml, if they want to access the=20
>feedback page they go to http://domain.com/sudirectory/feedback.shtml, =
etc.=20
>and some the shtml pages incorporat miva scripts.
>
>Since I am currently using shtml and miva, I have two sets of template =
files=20
>for headers, footers, site variables, etc. I would like to do away =
with the=20
>shtml part and go strictly with miva for sake of simplicity with the=20
>templates. However, I do realize that the miva processor is much more =

>complex and uses more of my server for processing than the SSI parser.
>
>Another point, I was thinking of is only having one script to access =
all=20
>other functions/scripts. In other words, when a person reaches my =
site they=20
>go to the index.mv page and all other pages would be accessed through =
the=20
>index.mv page. For example, if the person now wants the help page it =
will=20
>be accessed by http://domain.com/index.mv?Link=3Dhelp, and if the want =
the=20
>feeback page it will be http://domain.com/index.mv?Link=3Dfeedback.
>
>Can someone please enlighten me on some of the advantages and =
disadvantages=20
>of the two methods described, ie. many scripts vs. one script with=20
>functions?
>
>Also, is it better to keep the shtml pages and not all miva to =
conserve the=20
>miva engine?
>
>All suggestions/feedback welcome.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ed
>
>_________________________________________________ ______________________=
______________
>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : =
http://explorer.msn.com
>

#3 · 12-06-00, 10:04 AM

Site Design Philosophy

Ed,

Personally, I don't restrict myself to one 'scheme'. My sites
often include SSI pages, Miva generated pages, Perl generated
pages, JavaScript generated pages and a lot of pages that may
have some of each in them.

For example, one page on a site I designed uses SSI for browser
sniffing, a Java applet for a counter, Some Perl scripts for
including some random text, some JavaScript for mouseovers and
a Miva banner rotater to display a random banner each time the
page is accessed.

I try to look at each page individually and decide what it needs
to accomplish and the most efficient means of doing it. Trying
to follow one sheme or another religiously just limits your
possibilities.

Cheers,
Tom Fosson

At 12:31 PM 12/06/2000 , Ed H wrote:
>Hi Miva-Users,
>
>I am doing a redesign on a site and was wondering if I could get some
>input on design philosophies and prefered methods.
>
>Currently, the site has many files that are accessed individually in
>different directories with a combination of shtml and miva. What I mean
>is if somebody wants the help page the go to
>http://domain.com/subdirectory/help.shtml, if they want to access the
>feedback page they go to http://domain.com/sudirectory/feedback.shtml,
>etc. and some the shtml pages incorporat miva scripts.
>
>Since I am currently using shtml and miva, I have two sets of template
>files for headers, footers, site variables, etc. I would like to do away
>with the shtml part and go strictly with miva for sake of simplicity with
>the templates. However, I do realize that the miva processor is much more
>complex and uses more of my server for processing than the SSI parser.
>
>Another point, I was thinking of is only having one script to access all
>other functions/scripts. In other words, when a person reaches my site
>they go to the index.mv page and all other pages would be accessed through
>the index.mv page. For example, if the person now wants the help page it
>will be accessed by http://domain.com/index.mv?Link=help, and if the want
>the feeback page it will be http://domain.com/index.mv?Link=feedback.
>
>Can someone please enlighten me on some of the advantages and
>disadvantages of the two methods described, ie. many scripts vs. one
>script with functions?
>
>Also, is it better to keep the shtml pages and not all miva to conserve
>the miva engine?
>
>All suggestions/feedback welcome.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ed
>
>_________________________________________________ __________________________
>__________
>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
>

#4 · 12-06-00, 10:13 AM

Site Design Philosophy

This is my philosiphy also... Use the BEST tool for the task at hand, and
each screen can have several tasks. If the best tool is Miva, use Miva... if
the best tool is Perl, use Perl...

Greg

*******************************
Web site design, promotion & hosting
<A HREF ="http://www.gddesign.com">http://www.gddesign.com</A>
<A HREF ="http://www.a1hostco.com">http://www.a1hostco.com</A>
*******************************

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cyberspace Publishing" <[email protected]>
To: "Ed H" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [meu] Site Design Philosophy

> Ed,
>
> Personally, I don't restrict myself to one 'scheme'. My sites
> often include SSI pages, Miva generated pages, Perl generated
> pages, JavaScript generated pages and a lot of pages that may
> have some of each in them.
>
> For example, one page on a site I designed uses SSI for browser
> sniffing, a Java applet for a counter, Some Perl scripts for
> including some random text, some JavaScript for mouseovers and
> a Miva banner rotater to display a random banner each time the
> page is accessed.
>
> I try to look at each page individually and decide what it needs
> to accomplish and the most efficient means of doing it. Trying
> to follow one sheme or another religiously just limits your
> possibilities.
>
> Cheers,
> Tom Fosson
>
> At 12:31 PM 12/06/2000 , Ed H wrote:
> >Hi Miva-Users,
> >
> >I am doing a redesign on a site and was wondering if I could get some
> >input on design philosophies and prefered methods.
> >
> >Currently, the site has many files that are accessed individually in
> >different directories with a combination of shtml and miva. What I mean
> >is if somebody wants the help page the go to
> >http://domain.com/subdirectory/help.shtml, if they want to access the
> >feedback page they go to http://domain.com/sudirectory/feedback.shtml,
> >etc. and some the shtml pages incorporat miva scripts.
> >
> >Since I am currently using shtml and miva, I have two sets of template
> >files for headers, footers, site variables, etc. I would like to do away
> >with the shtml part and go strictly with miva for sake of simplicity with
> >the templates. However, I do realize that the miva processor is much
more
> >complex and uses more of my server for processing than the SSI parser.
> >
> >Another point, I was thinking of is only having one script to access all
> >other functions/scripts. In other words, when a person reaches my site
> >they go to the index.mv page and all other pages would be accessed
through
> >the index.mv page. For example, if the person now wants the help page it
> >will be accessed by http://domain.com/index.mv?Link=help, and if the want
> >the feeback page it will be http://domain.com/index.mv?Link=feedback.
> >
> >Can someone please enlighten me on some of the advantages and
> >disadvantages of the two methods described, ie. many scripts vs. one
> >script with functions?
> >
> >Also, is it better to keep the shtml pages and not all miva to conserve
> >the miva engine?
> >
> >All suggestions/feedback welcome.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Ed
> >
>
>_________________________________________________ __________________________
> >__________
> >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com
> >

#5 · 12-06-00, 10:32 AM

Site Design Philosophy

<shudder> A Java Applet counter???

Restricting yourself is actually often a good thing, though. One, it =
can force you to try to learn the language more by discovering =
techniques and commands that you would normally not have known about. =
Two, it prevents the occasional incompatibility in languages, =
especially when dealing with schemes and templates. For instance, I =
recently did a site design and another company had been hired to do =
database and ecommerce work in PHP (which ended up pretty bad - they =
weren't very skilled). Due to their lack of skill with PHP, we ended up =
having to create a navigational interface that was extremely insecure.

"How insecure, Uncle Fuscus?" Well, let me tell you this. The user ID =
was passed via the URL's query string and that determined whether you =
were logged in or not. If you logged in, you got a page URL like: =
members.php?uid=3D8. Now, in order to get into Joe Blow's account, you =
switch that little 8 to 7 and presto. No password needed. We had to =
modify the whole nav bar to accommodate that poor URL. We even tried to =
show/convince the programming company about the bug, but they were =
hard-hearted. Oh, such a frustrating world.=20

By the way, why use Perl for random text when you could've used Miva =
for that AND for the counter?=20

--Fuscus aka "Fake Jonathan"
SiteCreative.com

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 12/6/00 at 1:04 PM Cyberspace Publishing wrote:

>Ed,
>
>Personally, I don't restrict myself to one 'scheme'. My sites
>often include SSI pages, Miva generated pages, Perl generated
>pages, JavaScript generated pages and a lot of pages that may
>have some of each in them.
>
>For example, one page on a site I designed uses SSI for browser
>sniffing, a Java applet for a counter, Some Perl scripts for
>including some random text, some JavaScript for mouseovers and
>a Miva banner rotater to display a random banner each time the
>page is accessed.
>
>I try to look at each page individually and decide what it needs
>to accomplish and the most efficient means of doing it. Trying
>to follow one sheme or another religiously just limits your
>possibilities.
>
>Cheers,
>Tom Fosson
>
>At 12:31 PM 12/06/2000 , Ed H wrote:
>>Hi Miva-Users,
>>
>>I am doing a redesign on a site and was wondering if I could get some =

>>input on design philosophies and prefered methods.
>>
>>Currently, the site has many files that are accessed individually in=20
>>different directories with a combination of shtml and miva. What I =
mean=20
>>is if somebody wants the help page the go to=20
>>http://domain.com/subdirectory/help.shtml, if they want to access the =

>>feedback page they go to =
http://domain.com/sudirectory/feedback.shtml,=20
>>etc. and some the shtml pages incorporat miva scripts.
>>
>>Since I am currently using shtml and miva, I have two sets of =
template=20
>>files for headers, footers, site variables, etc. I would like to do =
away=20
>>with the shtml part and go strictly with miva for sake of simplicity =
with=20
>>the templates. However, I do realize that the miva processor is much =
more=20
>>complex and uses more of my server for processing than the SSI =
parser.
>>
>>Another point, I was thinking of is only having one script to access =
all=20
>>other functions/scripts. In other words, when a person reaches my =
site=20
>>they go to the index.mv page and all other pages would be accessed =
through=20
>>the index.mv page. For example, if the person now wants the help =
page it=20
>>will be accessed by http://domain.com/index.mv?Link=3Dhelp, and if =
the want=20
>>the feeback page it will be =
http://domain.com/index.mv?Link=3Dfeedback.
>>
>>Can someone please enlighten me on some of the advantages and=20
>>disadvantages of the two methods described, ie. many scripts vs. one=20
>>script with functions?
>>
>>Also, is it better to keep the shtml pages and not all miva to =
conserve
>>the miva engine?
>>
>>All suggestions/feedback welcome.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Ed
>>
>>________________________________________________ ______________________=
_____=20
>>__________
>>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : =
http://explorer.msn.com
>>

#6 · 12-06-00, 11:06 AM

RE: Site Design Philosophy

Actually, the Java Applet counter was a novelty - it counts
"real-time" and changes like and odometer when anyone hits
the same page while you are online - even making a little
'clicking' sound when it does it.

The Perl script was one I had previously modified from the
old "Today in History" script. It displays a "Quote for the
day" using 366 files - one qoute for every day of the year.
Since it was already written, why "reinvent the wheel"? ;-)

I disagree that "Restricting yourself is actually often a
good thing, though." For one, it limits you in your ability
to be flexible. For another, you are denying yourself the
pleasure of understanding other languages and how they
interact with each other. You can still become quite
proficient in each language if you have an inquisitive mind
and enjoy what you are doing.

I do agree with the point you make on using query strings in
the URL that include IDs and/or passwords. I've seen many
sites doing it (and have had fun changing them to view the
results.) I would never do it that way myself. The best way,
of course, is to use encrypted passwords and query a database
of users on each page (with maybe a session ID) using the "POST"
method in forms instead of "GET".

Cheers,
Tom Fosson

At 01:32 PM 12/06/2000 , Jonathan Hilgeman wrote:
><shudder> A Java Applet counter???
>
>Restricting yourself is actually often a good thing, though. One, it =
can=20
>force you to try to learn the language more by discovering techniques =
and=20
>commands that you would normally not have known about. Two, it =
prevents=20
>the occasional incompatibility in languages, especially when dealing =
with=20
>schemes and templates. For instance, I recently did a site design and=20
>another company had been hired to do database and ecommerce work in =
PHP=20
>(which ended up pretty bad - they weren't very skilled). Due to their =
lack=20
>of skill with PHP, we ended up having to create a navigational =
interface=20
>that was extremely insecure.
>
>"How insecure, Uncle Fuscus?" Well, let me tell you this. The user ID =
was=20
>passed via the URL's query string and that determined whether you were =

>logged in or not. If you logged in, you got a page URL like:=20
>members.php?uid=3D8. Now, in order to get into Joe Blow's account, you =

>switch that little 8 to 7 and presto. No password needed. We had to =
modify=20
>the whole nav bar to accommodate that poor URL. We even tried to=20
>show/convince the programming company about the bug, but they were=20
>hard-hearted. Oh, such a frustrating world.
>
>By the way, why use Perl for random text when you could've used Miva =
for=20
>that AND for the counter?
>
>--Fuscus aka "Fake Jonathan"
>SiteCreative.com
>
>
>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
>On 12/6/00 at 1:04 PM Cyberspace Publishing wrote:
>
> >Ed,
> >
> >Personally, I don't restrict myself to one 'scheme'. My sites
> >often include SSI pages, Miva generated pages, Perl generated
> >pages, JavaScript generated pages and a lot of pages that may
> >have some of each in them.
> >
> >For example, one page on a site I designed uses SSI for browser
> >sniffing, a Java applet for a counter, Some Perl scripts for
> >including some random text, some JavaScript for mouseovers and
> >a Miva banner rotater to display a random banner each time the
> >page is accessed.
> >
> >I try to look at each page individually and decide what it needs
> >to accomplish and the most efficient means of doing it. Trying
> >to follow one sheme or another religiously just limits your
> >possibilities.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Tom Fosson
> >
> >At 12:31 PM 12/06/2000 , Ed H wrote:
> >>Hi Miva-Users,
> >>
> >>I am doing a redesign on a site and was wondering if I could get =
some
> >>input on design philosophies and prefered methods.
> >>
> >>Currently, the site has many files that are accessed individually =
in
> >>different directories with a combination of shtml and miva. What I =
mean
> >>is if somebody wants the help page the go to
> >>http://domain.com/subdirectory/help.shtml, if they want to access =
the
> >>feedback page they go to =
http://domain.com/sudirectory/feedback.shtml,
> >>etc. and some the shtml pages incorporat miva scripts.
> >>
> >>Since I am currently using shtml and miva, I have two sets of =
template
> >>files for headers, footers, site variables, etc. I would like to do =
away
> >>with the shtml part and go strictly with miva for sake of =
simplicity with
> >>the templates. However, I do realize that the miva processor is =
much more
> >>complex and uses more of my server for processing than the SSI =
parser.
> >>
> >>Another point, I was thinking of is only having one script to =
access all
> >>other functions/scripts. In other words, when a person reaches my =
site
> >>they go to the index.mv page and all other pages would be accessed =
through
> >>the index.mv page. For example, if the person now wants the help =
page it
> >>will be accessed by http://domain.com/index.mv?Link=3Dhelp, and if =
the want
> >>the feeback page it will be =
http://domain.com/index.mv?Link=3Dfeedback.
> >>
> >>Can someone please enlighten me on some of the advantages and
> >>disadvantages of the two methods described, ie. many scripts vs. =
one
> >>script with functions?
> >>
> >>Also, is it better to keep the shtml pages and not all miva to =
conserve
> >>the miva engine?
> >>
> >>All suggestions/feedback welcome.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>
> >>Ed

"The grateful mind is constantly fixed upon the best. Therefore it =
tends to=20
become the best. It takes the form or character of the best, and will=20
receive the best."
=97Wallace D. Wattles
The Science of Getting Rich, Chapter 7: Gratitude
http://currdog.com/sogr/intro.shtml

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