Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

[Pete McNamara]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

Have you read this search engine friendly links tutorial?

[rolygate]

Re: SEO / Miva -- agarvey

agarvey,

There is a difference between SEO theory and what is possible in Miva. Miva is one of the trickiest apps of all to get right, for outsiders and those who are not expert. In general it is a good idea to hire a Miva developer to sort things out for you, as it doesn't take long and it is amazingly cost-effective. Otherwise you can find yourself banging your head against a brick wall.

Also there is the fact that Miva is going through a period of massive change, and it's change for the better of course. What applied last year is history now. So hire an expert. (Not me by the way. It's hard to be specific because there are a lot of good ones, but Steve Strickland at www.ecommerce-retail.com has done good work for us and I can recommend him.)

In answer to your question re. URLs, here are some points:

1. Try not to use upper case in URLs. It will only cause problems one way or another. There are no pluses, as it even looks bad. Camelcase is not the right way for URLs.

2. Instead, use hyphens. So the URL / name you quoted should not be camelcase like this:
BeautyRestWaterProof...
...but hyphenated like this:
beauty-rest-waterproof...

3. And never, ever use an underscore for any purpose whatsoever on a website.

4. You are asking this because you want to get a search positive, yes? But in order for this to be the case, the name you are going to use must be a keyword, ie something that people search for. There will be little if any search traffic for 'beauty-rest', so I wouldn't break your neck trying to get that into an URL. However, 'waterproof mattress' will be a search term, so by all means get that in. It would of course be in this form:
/waterproof-mattress/ --- or --- /waterproof-mattress.html --- for example

5. Also don't go overboard trying to get relevant category names, as long as the page name is good. For example if you have:
/waterproof-mattress.html
...then you really don't want or need the cat. name as well:
/waterproof-mattresses/waterproof-mattress.html

6. Try to avoid htaccess, and use the application's solutions where possible. Going to htaccess is normally either overkill or the wrong way. You can normally get the URLs you need in Miva -- but as I say, if you hire an expert for an hour or two it will always pay off. After s/he has set it up for you, you can do the rest. But thrashing around trying to work out what to do in the first place is the wrong way (IMO).

7. Looking at your site, the SEF URLs all use upper case. This is bad practice for several reasons, but if it's done, it's done. No vital need to undo that. But personally I wouldn't do any more -- I would use lower case + hyphens exclusively in the future, which is the right way. If you wanted to, you could change some of the old ones and use htaccess redirects to take visitors to the new page. If you do this, all traffic (for either URL and also the raw URL) goes to the new page with the good URL.

My personal advice if you did this would be to do a maximum of 10 URLs, and wait 2 months before doing any more. It is absolutely vital that you check for info updates in GWT after doing this. (Your Google Webmaster Tools account). This is because Google is extremely sensitive to chained redirects and will throw a wobbly if they find too many. So do a few, wait, and check. The maximum permissible number of stacked redirects is ONLY THREE, but in some circumstances can be only two. So be careful. [secret info here that Google don't publish of course - has to be found by trial and error - mainly error :) ]

Hope that answers your Q and also gives some additional info. In case you're interested in why/how I'm commenting - I'm an SEO consultant who specialises in SEO for CMS and ecommerce. Note that I do the SEO and hire devs to do the work, they are the people who know the individual applications. I don't even begin to claim I know the apps and plugins like they do.

chris

[Leanne]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

Try to avoid htaccess, and use the application's solutions where possible. Going to htaccess is normally either overkill or the wrong way.

Can you elaborate on this?

[entrepre7]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

Would you mind explaining why these two things are bad before I spend hours and hours of work changing things.

1. Try not to use upper case in URLs.

2 . And not to ever use an underscore.

The only way I could get my sitemap to work was using underscores. Hypens would not work on any two letter category codes as I had used a hypen in them.

[rolygate]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

Hey Leanne,

That statement doesn't look quite right when taken out of context, I guess...

A poster asked about adjusting his SEF URLs. He asked if he should just do it in htaccess. This is the wrong direction in most dynamic applications as they have plugins or specific methods for correcting raw URLs.

So if he asks "Do I fix my raw URLs by htaccess scripts?" then the answer is no. But if he were to ask "I have had a developer sort everything out, and it's all fine. But there is a page or two to redirect / a domain split to fix / some other minor thing", then yes, htaccess is the probably way to go.

But I have to add to this:

1. Get a Miva dev to put you on the right path.

2. If you need to ask about general htaccess questions, then you are not really safe to be adjusting it. You can take the site out, or worse, cause a serious problem that you won't spot for a while. Get a pro to do it please.

3. When you know enough that you are ready to ask, "What is the difference between the two scripts following?", then you are safe with htaccess:

RewriteCond %{HTTP_HOST} ^example.com/ [NC] 
RewriteRule ^(.*)$ http://www.example.com/$1 [L,R=301] 

RewriteCond %{HTTP_HOST} !www.example.com
RewriteRule ^.*$ http://www.example.com [R=301]

[there is no underline in the above example, the application has inserted it]

So that's my, er, final answer. I guess I could have put that in the last post but I figure it was long enough as it was? Also I don't like the fact that you cannot edit your post within 10 minutes or so, when you spot a typo in the finished result, or something that doesn't look right. I made a big typo error here once and now it's jammed in there forever. :)

[MacNichol]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

Regarding the dash versus underscore debate, what does anyone know about Google's change in July 2007? Has this changed things, or should we still be using dashes?

Please see:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9748779-7.html


Thanks.

[rolygate]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

Would you mind explaining why these two things are bad before I spend hours and hours of work changing things.

1. Try not to use upper case in URLs.

2 . And not to ever use an underscore.

The only way I could get my sitemap to work was using underscores. Hypens would not work on any two letter category codes as I had used a hypen in them.

entrepre7:

Yes, this needs expanding I guess. Firstly: these are SEO points and are therefore subject to endless argument. So you'll find other opinions :)

Also I question whether you should be spending valuable time reworking this area of your site. These are SEO plus points, sure - if you can afford the time to expend on them. You are talking about the aggregation of marginal gains here: gains that may be small and not worth the extra effort unless you are sure you have covered everything else.

Also, you need to evaluate WHY you need these gains: if you are at Google #1 you don't need it. If you are not - then there may well be much more efficient ways to get there. For example if you don't have a lot of links or a lot of text content, you are far better off fixing those areas first. They will give you huge gains compared to what we are talking about here. OK?

Having said that, I'll answer your specific questions.

Upper case is not used in URLs because it causes problems down the line. These are minor problems to be sure, but they can add up, and then catch you out. If you google for reasons you'll probably find enough. But don't waste time changing page URLs and then redirecting them unless you have nothing better to do. As I say, this is a marginal point in the end. If you really need a list of reasons for this I'd have to reply by email after an hour's thought - I can't remember lists. Just take it as read - or ignore it. The next answer, about underscores, has to be huge for technical reasons, so I don't want to hurt my brain on this one as well. I can only advise you that in the future you should use lower-case plus hyphens, in all URLs, where possible. I don't know of any situation where this is not possible - because it is the default and best solution. However, Miva can sure throw up some tough situations so maybe there is a case in Miva where you can't follow best practice here.

Underscores: well, this is going to take some explaining. This is a technical question so it needs a technical answer. It's something that technical SEO people are well aware of, but marketing SEO people often get wrong. It's one of the great "Do these guys know anything about technical SEO?" tests, as it tells you the answer instantly if they use underscores anywhere on their client's websites :)

OK, here we go: until last year no search engine anywhere could read any text joined with an underscore.

It's as simple as that. If you think about it, there are a lot of implications to this.

Last year, Google - the most sophisticated of all the SEs - started to read them 'in a limited fashion', according to them. No other SE could, at that time.

The reason is the difference between reading the text (whether it's an URL or an image name or whatever), and parsing it. To read it = simply to use the information as a filepath without knowing the actual meaning of the phrase. To parse it = in addition to following a path, to also decode and understand the information within that text. In other words a search engine can read this (ie find the file):
/picture_of_big_tent.jpg

...but there is no way that it can parse it and tell it's a tent: you have told it not to do this. An underscore is a hard-coded instruction to the machine to always join these words and treat them as one word, and not to split them for any purpose. A search engine cannot understand this phrase now or make any use of it. This hard-code instruction is so difficult to get around - it's right in the core of the processing - that it has taken right till 2007 for the most sophisticated SE in the world to find a way to partly solve it.

However: if a Miva situation requires you for some reason to use underscores, then that is what you must do. I'd like to see more of this, though, with examples - I'm not too sure I'd believe it till then, this is bad news and needs fixing if it's the case :)

Any name or phrase with an underscore effectively does not exist for search engines, with a small number of unreliable exceptions, as I have stated. So being forced to use underscores is very poor practice.

Underscores derive from on-PC use in the past, where a quick fix for filepath spaces was needed. It has absolutely no relevance to website use whatsoever and should never be used for any purpose on a website as it is both unnecessary and introduces issues. If you find yourself getting into a situation where you might be forced to use an underscore - don't do it - go back to the start and find an alternative. There are many alternatives that are preferable as they don't cause major problems, as underscores do. Here are some. They may or may not be advisable in your circumstances.

camelcase: LikeThis
hyphen: like-this
period: like.this
joined up: likethis

That's the basic situation but you can go on about the details for hours. Give me a rum and I will.

chris

[rolygate]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

@MacNichol

I was typing out my answer toentrepre7 about this at the same time you posted. I think I have answered the question?

[entrepre7]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

Thanks Chris. I sincerely appreciate your help here.

This is my experience. On product codes I had no problem with my short links working with a hyphen. But on category codes ( I have 600 categories) any single word codes worked fine. But when I used two words and used a hyphen the short link would not work. So I changed it to underscore and now all short links work.

I was just told by miva support that I could not use a hyphen in codes. I would have to use underscore or just let the two words be together.

[rolygate]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

Hmm. Well I have to say that in your case, with a large site by the sounds of it, your best bet might be to book a couple hours time from a good Miva dev. To me, that would be a wise investment. You'd want a guy who knew his way round SEF URL solutions for Miva. I did recommend one earlier in this thread I think.

Right now, your underscore-joined category names in the URLs don't exist for search, as far as a the 'safe bet' viewpoint goes. This may not be important if the product names are good keywords however. In that case there is an argument that you do not need to worry about the cat. names anyway.

On the other hand you can use both, and formatted correctly. We have a Miva5 site where the category names are all hyphenated, and so are the product names. So it's definitely possible. However, only one or the other shows at one time: domain/category, or domain/product.html

As far as I am concerned that is entirely satisfactory and does the job well enough.

Miva support are probably referring to the raw URLs or default code addresses. Your SEF URL solution should convert those (in an ideal world) to anything you want - hyphens or whatever. As explained, it's possible to get very close to perfect. But you'll need the right guy to fix it for you.

I'm fairly au fait with database-driven webapps, OK, but I know when to call in another expert. Otherwise you'll waste a massive amount of time and effort.

[Biffy]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

A while back we held a discussion on the shortcomings of Miva SEO Links. The inability to use hyphens in some URLs was pointed out. We'd also like to replace codes with names. In some stores it is crucial to keep the original abstract codes, auto parts for example, or products sold through GSA Advantage that must meet federal product code requirements.

In fact, we'd like to have codes, store names and SEO names available with hyphen separators. We can do this now with custom fields but that imposes a performance hit that is unacceptable in the largest stores.

We can now define the ideal SEO URL. Achieving it with Miva has posed a serious challenge that has not yet been met in all circumstances. Some problems can be eliminated by customizing your data, but that's not always feasible. It's quite common to end up choosing which imperfection to live with.

Thanks for the plug, Chris!

[kitdang]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

aarcmedia,

I just purchased SEO friendly links from Sebenza and I was able to to create short links via product name and category name.

domain.com/cateogry_code/this+is+my+category.html
domain.com/product_code/this+is+my+product.html

Since the '+' is similar to a space in apache/linux, is it better to have '_' or '-' instead? If so, what do i need to do in htaccess?

[aarcmedia]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

While + and _ are accepted, DEFINATELY use the - (hyphen's) in the URL's.

[kitdang]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

How do I add the - (hyphen's)?

I currently have this in the htaccess. It's automatically replace the space with '+'

RewriteEngine On
RewriteRule ^(.*)/(.*)\.html$ /mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=USL&Code=$1 [L]
RewriteRule ^(.*)\.html$ /mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=USL&Code=$1 [L]

[Dan - Glendale Designs]

Re: Search Engine Optimization w/ Miva

If you using Sebenza's Category Template Manager:

&mvt:product:nameclean; (Replaces all non-alpha and non-numeric values with dashes from the name)